Who is the most evil character in the Dresdenverse?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Which is not unreasonable when talking about human conflict. But this is the Red Court. They literally can only exist, thrive, and propogate through murder and slavery.

The numbers I quote above seem to me to indicate that murder is not actually a thing they do as a general policy.  Nor am I entirely convinced that slavery rather than symbiosis is impossible for them; Ortega at least clearly thinks in terms of sustainability for his food supply.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Yes, they could do so, if both parties desired it.  But the Red Court intended war no matter what, they were simply looking for a way to pretend to be the aggrieved party.  Under those conditions, there was no peace option.

I do not believe they intended war no matter what, because they have waited centuries for the right option*.  It's not about pretending to be the aggrieved party, it's about actually being the aggrieved party under the letter of Mab's Accords, because as we see repeatedly, not respecting those gets you killed.  That they manipulated Harry into breaking that law does not matter; we also see over and over that with Faerie the letter of the law matters and the spirit is immaterial.

There was a 'delay hostilities' option, and if the Council was using that time to prepare, it might even be a defensible option.

Looking at their relative capacities to increase their strength, the White Council pre-DB would need to carry out minimal recruiting to remain ahead in this arms race.

But there's no evidence that the Peabody-influenced Senior Council would have even realized the difference.

I beg leave to doubt that also.

If Harry had not burned Bianca's place, but had told Eb that the Red Court were trying to manipulate a casus belli, how do you think Eb would have reacted ?

*Either that or they had actually been willing to live peacefully and something changed relatively recently.  In which case it is the something that changed that is the problem, not the existence of the Red Court, and Ortega was a prime ally to have thrown away.  (Or, as I believe, will be a prime ally when it becomes clear that recreating the Red Court is an essential part of preserving reality and he comes out of hiding.)

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Regardless how weak the council really was it was looking weak and it was acting weak and that attracts vultures.

Changes demonstrates how "weak" the Council actually was, when it came to choosing to go on the offensive.  In that situation the  Red Court lasts a matter of days.

They have the strength to match a position of confidence.  Refraining from genocide in the interest of a peaceful solution and restoring what had previously been established as centuries of co-existence is not looking weak, it is demonstrating that they are law-abiding members of the supernatural community.

[forumghost]

The numbers I quote above seem to me to indicate that murder is not actually a thing they do as a general policy.  Nor am I entirely convinced that slavery rather than symbiosis is impossible for them; Ortega at least clearly thinks in terms of sustainability for his food supply.

1) That logic is asinine.

The conceit of Urban Fantasy series is that they occur in the real world, so of course the statistics are the same- The story runs on the assumption that it happens in our world and we just don't know it (the Masquerade), so assuming that the number are negligible because the figures are the same doesn't work- eg, Tilly mentioned in Changes that the Red Court attacks described by Susan sound like the Mexican Cartels, because in the DF, the Red Court runs the Cartels. Saying that the statistics being the same proves the a non-factor is akin to saying that because WW1 happened IRL, the story is wrong and Kemmler wasn't really behind it in the DF.

2) A Symbiotic relationship would imply mutual benefits. There is no mutual benefits with the Red Court. The areas they controlled had people trained to act as walking juice boxes from a young age via indoctrination and drug addiction.

3) It is literally impossible for the Red Court to reproduce via anything other than murder. It's a fact of their Biology. Why is it that you seem to place a higher right-to-life to the Red Court then to their Victims? Because as said, there not being victims is physically impossible due to their reproductive cycle.

[LordDresden2]

I do not believe they intended war no matter what, because they have waited centuries for the right option*. 

No.

Two major things had already happened to upset the old balance of power before the story even opens.  One was the rising influence of Nemesis, the other the technological revolution.  In recent decades, it's become possible to travel, communicate, and otherwise operate around the world in a way that the Wizards have great difficulty coping with.  This made the White Council vulnerable, but the Senior Council and the rest of the older Wizards were not fully aware of how much that changed everything.

The old balance of power was already gone by the time the story opens.  That's why, or part of why, the Red Court was willing to take on the Council at all.  They had not waited centuries for the right moment, they waited at most a few years, 20 tops.  Harry was a handy pretext, but absent him something else would have worked.

(Also, it's possible that Harry looked like a good choice because of Margaret.  We don't have enough data to say anything on that, but it's not improbable.)

It's not about pretending to be the aggrieved party, it's about actually being the aggrieved party under the letter of Mab's Accords, because as we see repeatedly, not respecting those gets you killed.

Nope.

It might eventually get you killed, but not fast enough to save the Council in the mean time.  And as for being the aggrieved party, all they have to do is set up some situation where a Council member faces an intolerable choice, it's not that hard to do.  Harry was just convenient.

If Harry had not burned Bianca's place, but had told Eb that the Red Court were trying to manipulate a casus belli, how do you think Eb would have reacted ?

How does that save Susan?

*Either that or they had actually been willing to live peacefully and something changed relatively recently.  In which case it is the something that changed that is the problem, not the existence of the Red Court, and Ortega was a prime ally to have thrown away.

Nemesis and the technological revolution was what had changed (at least, there might be other factors too, I wouldn't be surprised if Kemmler's activities played some role).  The old days were over.

 (Or, as I believe, will be a prime ally when it becomes clear that recreating the Red Court is an essential part of preserving reality and he comes out of hiding.)

Ortega had already set things up in such a way (or been manipulated to set things up in such a way, the difference is moot) that there was no way to achieve such an alliance.  It wasn't one of the options available.

[LordDresden2]

Changes demonstrates how "weak" the Council actually was, when it came to choosing to go on the offensive.  In that situation the  Red Court lasts a matter of days.

After the Council came within a hair's breadth of being wiped out several times.  By then, the tide of the war had already begun to turn.

[Arjan]

Changes demonstrates how "weak" the Council actually was, when it came to choosing to go on the offensive.  In that situation the  Red Court lasts a matter of days.

The Council was not the main force that attacked in Chicen Itza so that did not tell anything about the strength of the white council. It is also clear from the book that nobody, except probably Odin, Mab and Uriel, anticipated this ending. Hidden strength does not prevent a war, it was not taken into consideration by the red court when deciding about the war.

The red court was quite confident and arrogant. They really thought they had enough strength to stop enything the white council could bring against them in Chichen Itza otherwise they would have brought their warlock and outsider allies but this was a private party.

They have the strength to match a position of confidence.

It is clear from the books that they don’t have the strength and that the white council depends on the support of Winter that is not really dependable or predictable.

Refraining from genocide in the interest of a peaceful solution and restoring what had previously been established as centuries of co-existence is not looking weak, it is demonstrating that they are law-abiding members of the supernatural community.

Except that this motivation is nowhere mentioned in the text. The only reason the white council want peace that is shown in the text is the cost of war for them which is very rational but does nothing to discourage the red court if they are not feeling the same.

And we are talking about the red courts motivation and how the white council appeared to be. I think the white council is part of the structure against the outsiders and is as such protected by the elders if the situation really gets critical but few know about that and it was certainly not in the red courts mind when deciding about war.

Because who was technical the agressor according to the accords if of tactical importance but it was always the red court who really decided about war or peace. It was always the red court who started the attacks. It was their perception of the situation that decided about war and peace. Not even the real strength of the council but the perceived strength. For preventing war it is better to look strong and be weak than vice versa.and the white council looked weak and acted weak before the war started and then the red court took a big part of their strength out immediately in archangel.

[wardenferry419]

Back to the topic of most evil character, it seems Shagnasty is leading with Kemmler and Nicodemus rounding out the top 3. Is there anybody not on the poll that deserves a dishonorable mention?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The conceit of Urban Fantasy series is that they occur in the real world, so of course the statistics are the same- The story runs on the assumption that it happens in our world and we just don't know it (the Masquerade), so assuming that the number are negligible because the figures are the same doesn't work- eg, Tilly mentioned in Changes that the Red Court attacks described by Susan sound like the Mexican Cartels, because in the DF, the Red Court runs the Cartels. Saying that the statistics being the same proves the a non-factor is akin to saying that because WW1 happened IRL, the story is wrong and Kemmler wasn't really behind it in the DF.

I disagree entirely.  If the DV didn't have the same things that cause  real world disappearances, or had less of them, I would be willing to consider this interpretation, but the evidence is that it does.

2) A Symbiotic relationship would imply mutual benefits. There is no mutual benefits with the Red Court. The areas they controlled had people trained to act as walking juice boxes from a young age via indoctrination and drug addiction.

And you don't see the possibility of, say, being taken care of in exchange for a blood donation a month, as better than, for example, living in the middle of something like the civil war in the Congo?

3) It is literally impossible for the Red Court to reproduce via anything other than murder. It's a fact of their Biology. Why is it that you seem to place a higher right-to-life to the Red Court then to their Victims?

I don't.  I do, however, for the reasons I have listed, believe their reproduction is slow and costs very few lives compared to many other concerns in the DV, and therefor I assign those other concerns higher priority.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Two major things had already happened to upset the old balance of power before the story even opens.  One was the rising influence of Nemesis, the other the technological revolution.

Assuming for a moment that Nemesis is some sort of behind-everything boogeyman rather than a Fae-specific infection (which I do not actually believe, because there is no need for it, it does not explain anything not already solidly explained), it's still a specific individual disrupting influence.  So that's an argument for attacking Nemesis, not for attacking the Red Court.  If anything, it's an argument for allying with the Red Court against Nemesis; they are visibly not benefiting from its actions either.

In recent decades, it's become possible to travel, communicate, and otherwise operate around the world in a way that the Wizards have great difficulty coping with.

The ability of wizards to mess with technology does go a fair ways to counter that, and Harry has been able to contain that to some extent when he has tried, so I have a reasonable amount of faith that more skilled and experienced wizards would be able to do better.

This made the White Council vulnerable, but the Senior Council and the rest of the older Wizards were not fully aware of how much that changed everything.

You buy into Harry's prejudices on this front, then ?

They had not waited centuries for the right moment, they waited at most a few years, 20 tops.  Harry was a handy pretext, but absent him something else would have worked.

We see what happens when the Red Court trespass on Winter in DB (they must have, to attack the Council in the Ways, because the Council only ave access to Ways in Winter); they get a through hammering in PG as a direct result of Faerie actions.

We also see what happens in Changes when they make a false peace offer; they get exterminated.

We see, in SG, Mab acting to punish Nicodemus for his violation of truce with the Archive in SmF.

The evidence does not come down in favour of Accords violations being trivial things to get away with.  Therfore the Red Court absolutely need that casus belli.

And as for being the aggrieved party, all they have to do is set up some situation where a Council member faces an intolerable choice, it's not that hard to do.  Harry was just convenient.

I'm inclined to think any loyal member of the White Council would be expected to have sacrificed one life to prevent a war.  It very much seems to me that that is what Bianca expects; she does not read as suicidal.

How does that save Susan?

It doesn't.  Why is Susan's life worth more than the tens of thousands the war has taken, and why should anyone other than Harry find his choice there acceptable?

Ortega had already set things up in such a way (or been manipulated to set things up in such a way, the difference is moot) that there was no way to achieve such an alliance.  It wasn't one of the options available.

Believing that requires disregarding Susan's take on Ortega's motivations at the start of DM, yes ?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

After the Council came within a hair's breadth of being wiped out several times. 

How, several times ?

I can see that they are doing less well between DB and PG.  (Which is not something that can be attributed to the Red Court; principal deciding factor there is summoned Outsiders, and we know only humans can summon Outsiders.)  That looks like one window to me.

[jonas]

Assuming for a moment that Nemesis is some sort of behind-everything boogeyman rather than a Fae-specific infection

Point of fact N's forces have been seen in the workings of all 3 main Vamp Courts.  Peabody and Cowl(whom are certainly in the mix) have little to do with the Fae themselves. Also, we Have Thorned Namshiel and all that business too so... not so much fae centric.

And then there is GK, and his list of things gone wonky(which he'd know what N's capable of) and his insistence on gazing upon Harry directly when he arrives to check him for Nfection... it was the whole point of his visit to the what's up dock in fact.

*note to self, GK's eye let's him look at someone's arc of fate(changed by changing the alloy of Harry himself when standing upon the island) same mechanism that finds Nemesis. NOT coincidence.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

The Council was not the main force that attacked in Chicen Itza so that did not tell anything about the strength of the white council.

Sure they were.  The Grey Council are visibly wizards.  Harry is a White Council member.  To anyone who doesn't have the inside information we do from Harry's viewpoint, that's clearly a White Council operation.

It is also clear from the book that nobody, except probably Odin, Mab and Uriel, anticipated this ending.

Seems clear to me Arthur Langtry knows it's coming.

Hidden strength does not prevent a war, it was not taken into consideration by the red court when deciding about the war.

I'd argue that an accurate assessment of the Council's strength is why the Red Court have not been at war for them for centuries, and waited until they could put the Council legally in the wrong to do so.

They really thought they had enough strength to stop enything the white council could bring against them in Chichen Itza otherwise they would have brought their warlock and outsider allies but this was a private party.

Their supposed allies hanging them out to dry is pretty visible there, yes.

the white council depends on the support of Winter that is not really dependable or predictable.

My previous post should show why I do not agree with that take on things.

Except that this motivation is nowhere mentioned in the text.

It's there if you can see through Haryr's prejudices.

And we are talking about the red courts motivation and how the white council appeared to be. I think the white council is part of the structure against the outsiders and is as such protected by the elders if the situation really gets critical but few know about that and it was certainly not in the red courts mind when deciding about war.

The Accords, sfaict, protects all its signatories, Council or Red Court.  Hence, for example, Marcone being keen to sign up.  I can totally buy tha structure having an anti-Outsider purpose.

Because who was technical the agressor according to the accords if of tactical importance but it was always the red court who really decided about war or peace. It was always the red court who started the attacks.

Since when does the person who starts the attacks make the decision about war or peace ?  It's the choice of how to respond that determines whether that is a war.

It was their perception of the situation that decided about war and peace. Not even the real strength of the council but the perceived strength. For preventing war it is better to look strong and be weak than vice versa.and the white council looked weak and acted weak before the war started

Disagreed entirely.  The Red Court is deeply divided.  There would not have been a peace offer after Archangel if the Reds thought the Council was a pushover, and Ortega would not have been working so hard to stop the war in DM if he thought the war was winnable.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Point of fact N's forces have been seen in the workings of all 3 main Vamp Courts. 

I am not recalling any evidence establishing this.  Harry leaps to this conclusion at the end of CD, but the only thing Nemesis explains before CD that has not already been explained perfectly well is Aurora.

Peabody and Cowl(whom are certainly in the mix) have little to do with the Fae themselves.

Well, there is that athame.  Other than that we have nothing to connect them to Nemesis.

Also, we Have Thorned Namshiel and all that business too so... not so much fae centric.

What do we have about namshiel, exactly ? Mab slapping Harry down when he mentioned it is not really conclusive of anything.

[jonas]

I am not recalling any evidence establishing this.

N has appeared or messed with every court, Reds in the beginning, likely inspiring the later division in the Reds in CH, Cowl trying to control the 'election' in WN of Wamps,(Outsiders, OUTSIDERS EVERYWHERE!), Mavra seems to be the most cuddly, buddy, buddy N ally ever...

Harry leaps to this conclusion at the end of CD, but the only thing Nemesis explains before CD that has not already been explained perfectly well is Aurora.

I've not seen any explanations or anything that explains anything to satisfaction.

Well, there is that athame.  Other than that we have nothing to connect them to Nemesis.

Other than intentionally passing along an Nfected knife to Lea? For Cowl that would seem to be enough. Course you gotta start connecting other dot's then direct Nemesis reference(cause it's always so easy), Outsider connections, Peabody's 'the End is Nigh' command is pretty telling when your lookin at what N's trying to do of course.

What do we have about namshiel, exactly ? Mab slapping Harry down when he mentioned it is not really conclusive of anything.

Nico doing it too means nothing certainly? It's later disappearance...
You can always choose to see things a certain way, but i'd like to see what evidence there is N is a fae only thing(especially when it's been described as a human affliction too, and been given mention by GK in things not fae relative)