The mysteries of Maggie, Sr.

[LordDresden2]

I don't see her being a parasite infected from outside, with an established means for how (the Denarian coin) necessarily being of any definitive relevance to the case of White Court "demons"; we have no evidence for any ways of getting them into otherwise uninfected humans.

I don't think that's an accident, any more than I think it's incidental that the White Court does its business in Etruscan, or that the titles of the BAT are the favorite White Court curse words.

My guess is that the first White Court vampire was a human being or small group of human beings, who (consensually or not) was merged with one of the demon-things, probably in Etruria in pre-Roman/early Roman times, and the modern White Court are descended from him, her, or possibly them, if it was a small group.

Was Lord Raith that first one?  Theoretically possible, but I rather doubt it.  But I doubt he's many generations removed.

Which suggests a linkage to the Black Court more than the Red, oddly.  The Red Court appear to be physical parasites, they use humans as hosts for their offspring and the offspring copies some of the personality and at least some of the memories of the deceased host.  For a mundane world metaphor, they are like the insects that plant their offspring inside another creature, who devour it from within.  The emerged Red Vampire is in no sense the same entity that as the former host human, who is gone.

But the Black Court vampires appear to be the same human entity, dead and reanimated, true, full-deal vampires.  In that sense, they are more like the White Vampires than the Red.  The White parasites seem to leave the host alive, and need the host alive, and reproduce when the host reproduces.  It looks suspiciously like a link to the Outside is involved.

The Black Court kill the human, but reanimate him/her with some even deeper link to Outside.  It's not obvious that the Red Court had an Outsider link at all.

Now I can't prove this, but it's my working hypothesis.  I also note that Harry muses at one point that the White Council dates back to that period (in earlier form, no doubt).  Is there a link?  Insufficient data.

[LordDresden2]

Yah, but, to complete my comparison, we do not have any examples of contemporary living creatures that exist without mitochondria suddenly acquiring them. Inheriting something from your parents does not confirm that that thing can exist outside a human.

But we do have extant strains of bacteria that look, genetically, to be closer-than-cousins to mitochondria.

It is true that apparently the formation of the eukaryotic cell only happened once, or twice if you count the admixture of chloroplasts.  Which also suggests that the formation of the symbiosis is really, really hard.  Which might make it a decent metaphor for the White Court, at that.

[LordDresden2]

To go back to Lash she started as a part of Lasciel even when she was residing in Harry.

Small nitpick:  Lash was never part of Lasciel, from the start.  She was a 'copy, of an unknown degree of accuracy', an AI program, based on Lasciel's personality, imprinted on Harry's brain.  She was always a separate entity, she just was programmed not to realize that until Harry hacked the code.

[Arjan]

Small nitpick:  Lash was never part of Lasciel, from the start.  She was a 'copy, of an unknown degree of accuracy', an AI program, based on Lasciel's personality, imprinted on Harry's brain.  She was always a separate entity, she just was programmed not to realize that until Harry hacked the code.

You can say that. Lasciel and Lash in the beginning both thought differently.

[LordDresden2]

You can say that. Lasciel and Lash in the beginning both thought differently.

Though it's not clear that Lash knew it.

For that matter, I've always questioned how 'close' the correspondence between shadow and Fallen really is.  The shadows think they are perfect copies...but how likely is that, really?  Could you even fit the full scope of knowledge of beings that ancient and vast into a mortal brain?

Further, is it in the interest of the Fallen to produce such a full copy, even if it can be done?  After all, that information is now in a mortal mind, theoretically accessible to that mortal, or to a psychomancer with enough skill and willingness to break the Third Law.  Could be a major security breach, a way for your enemies to learn an awful lot about you.

I just wonder how close the copies really are to their creators.

[wardenferry419]

I would say the correspondance is one-way. The Fallen can monitor what happens to the shadow; but the shadow has no knowledge of what the Fallen is doing. At most, the shadow has a sorta emergency signal that can call the coin to the host.The shadow is  a sub-program.

[Kindler]

For what it's worth, I always assumed Lash was basically already Lasciel's offspring. Kind of like reproduction via budding, though maybe grafting a limb from one tree to another is a better comparison. Her existence at all, in my opinion, really should've clued Harry into the possibility of Bonnie.

[Rasins]

I would assume that Lash was a subset of the knowledge and motivations of Lasciel.  Not the complete being, or a complete copy of Lasciel either.  I think it had two basic missions, get Harry to pick up the coin and keep it, and to return to Lasciel with any new knowledge, which would be added to her own.  The rest of the copy being expunged as redundant.

When Harry got Lash to self identify, she became her own personality, and at that point was complete in and of herself, just requiring a host, since she had no body of her own, nor a means to create one, until Bonnie was created.

[LordDresden2]

For what it's worth, I always assumed Lash was basically already Lasciel's offspring. Kind of like reproduction via budding, though maybe grafting a limb from one tree to another is a better comparison. Her existence at all, in my opinion, really should've clued Harry into the possibility of Bonnie.

It depends on what the exact relationship between Lash and Bonnie is.  Harry calls Bonnie Lash's offspring, but I'm not sure she isn't actually Lash transformed.

I don't think you can call Lash an offspring of Lasciel, though, unless you count a computer program as the 'offspring' of the programmer.  It's not quite the same thing.

[Arjan]

It depends on what the exact relationship between Lash and Bonnie is.  Harry calls Bonnie Lash's offspring, but I'm not sure she isn't actually Lash transformed.

I don't think you can call Lash an offspring of Lasciel, though, unless you count a computer program as the 'offspring' of the programmer.  It's not quite the same thing.

It is offspring of both Harry and Lash if it is a new being build on both of them. Equal part of Lash and Harry spirit forming a new spirit independent of both.

[wardenferry419]

Is Bonnie a form of Nephilim?

[Emeraldblade]

We know that Harry changed copied Lasciel into Lash.  She became self aware enough that she knew if Harry died, she would as well.  When Bob looks at Harry after the attack in White Night and says he has all of these holes in his soul from where the attack happened, Harry is distressed.  However had all this damage not taken place would Bonnie have killed Harry instead of almost killing him?  With all the room that exists in Harry's soul or brain is that why he has been more mutable since?

If you look at Harry pre attack and post attack he seems to be much more changeable since the attack.  Is this an unintended consequence of Jim evolving as a writer, or was it preconceived?  Is this why the Winter Mantel is having more and more power over him because of all the damage that was done?  More importantly will Winter's grasp on Harry grow now that Harry has all of this open space inside of him that Bonnie occupied?

[wardenferry419]

Interesting idea, did Bonnie's presence inhibit the Knight mantle? Does anyone have any thoughts.

[kazimmoinuddin]

I am betting Bonnie learned a lot from the winter mantle, stuff like winter law. Things written into it, but not something Harry would be consciously aware.

[jonas]

I think the mirror/gateway/door is a very important aspect of the WCV's. It is literally the door one passes through on death.
If one dies and conceivably becomes an angel(as per Lash and the Reaper) and Thomas is 'half-born', then the thing coming through his inner gateway is more or less the part 'born' unto the originator of WCV's and shared throughout them.
*insert citation here, need collaboration on why mirror shadow is inherently negative but directly connects to future rebirth
Interesting corollary, Blamps are the literal things in the mirror come through in direct penumbral mirroring, which is to say, without any sort of drift from other sources of light at all, but as the direct inversion of what they were before, a living person. Birthing one inversion of life at a time, and one true immortal whose power can grow exponentially feeding on life(walking conjunction!?)