Unsolved Mystery Book6 Lord Raith

[Kindler]

I still haven't worked out the thralldom part, but Yeah, baseballs aren't so bad.  Harry survived and thrived AND learned the lesson.

Leah has a point in her training of Molly.

I imagine that Justin knew he had a short time to get these starborn trained.

Remember that he also used baseball as a reward for Harry lighting his fire.

I've said it before, but I think along similar lines. I think Justin's hand was forced, and he went from "I need to toughen these kids up for the upcoming fight" to "I know they won't listen to me, and they need to fight NOW."

I think Justin was getting ready to run.

[Arjan]

I've said it before, but I think along similar lines. I think Justin's hand was forced, and he went from "I need to toughen these kids up for the upcoming fight" to "I know they won't listen to me, and they need to fight NOW."

I think Justin was getting ready to run.

As a warlock you must always be ready to run.

[Cozarkian]

'rough means' as in thralldom? Still a bad guy.

Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds. How do you know Justin wasn't enthralling Elaine so she could learn to fight it with her full knowledge and consent? Or maybe Elaine had been nemfected and Justin enthralled her so he could cure her?

And doesn't it seem odd that Harry was able to defeat an accomplished warden while an enthralled apprentice was able to escape? I think Justin died because he used his last moments to save Elaine's life by opening a way to the NN and pushing her through. That is how Elaine ended up with the Summer Court and why Harry could never find her.

[Arjan]

Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds.

Harry and Molly did not enthrall each other and they did not invade each others mind.

How do you know Justin wasn't enthralling Elaine so she could learn to fight it with her full knowledge and consent?

Because he tried to enthrall Harry as well? Because being enthralled does not help with anything, ask Luccio.

Or maybe Elaine had been nemfected and Justin enthralled her so he could cure her?

Why infect an apprentice? Nemesis is usually more picky than that.

And doesn't it seem odd that Harry was able to defeat an accomplished warden while an enthralled apprentice was able to escape?

Justin underestimated Harry. Elaine could escape because Harry killed Justin.

I think Justin died because he used his last moments to save Elaine's life by opening a way to the NN and pushing her through. That is how Elaine ended up with the Summer Court and why Harry could never find her.

In ghost story Harry tells about Justin and Lea agrees with him. I think that was conclusive enough. Justin was one of the bad guys. He would not save Elaine if his own life was on the line.

[wardenferry419]

Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds. How do you know Justin wasn't enthralling Elaine so she could learn to fight it with her full knowledge and consent? Or maybe Elaine had been nemfected and Justin enthralled her so he could cure her?

And doesn't it seem odd that Harry was able to defeat an accomplished warden while an enthralled apprentice was able to escape? I think Justin died because he used his last moments to save Elaine's life by opening a way to the NN and pushing her through. That is how Elaine ended up with the Summer Court and why Harry could never find her.

I am going to, respectfully, disagree with you here. Justin does not deserve noble memories.

[Talby16]

Harry and Molly practice mind magic by invading each other's minds.

Harry was teaching Moly how to defend her mind and fight back by trying to project one image (Darth Vader in his TIE fighter) past each other's defenses. He was not teaching her how to dominate/enthrall another's mind.

[Cozarkian]

Harry and Molly did not enthrall each other and they did not invade each others mind.

They didn't enthrall each other, but I'm pretty sure they "invaded" each other's minds. Harry describes them playing war with each other's minds in GS. Now, technically, they had permission and they didn't actually make any changes to each others' minds or harm each other, so it wasn't literally invading. They didn't enthrall each other, and even if Justin enthralled Elaine with her permission, that was worse, but to me it if falls into the same category as snowballs v. stones.

Because he tried to enthrall Harry as well?

It looks like he was going to try to enthrall Harry as well, but we don't know that for certain and again, Justin could have had misguided "benevolent" reasons for planning to enthrall Harry, such as training/nemesis detection.

Because being enthralled does not help with anything, ask Luccio.

Did Luccio know she was enthralled? The entire White Council is negligent on mental defense training. Maybe if Luccio had training in being enthralled she could have recognized and resisted the influence and La Fortier would still be alive.

Why infect an apprentice? Nemesis is usually more picky than that.

To take control of a potential starborn before she has come into her full power.

Justin underestimated Harry.

True, but irrelevant.

Elaine could escape because Harry killed Justin.

How? If she was still enthralled, she couldn't move until Justin was dead and the spell was broken, and at that point there is a good chance it would have been too late. Either Justin removed the enthrallment, saved her, or Elaine already knew how to open Ways to the NN and was therefore more powerful at that age than we know.

In ghost story Harry tells about Justin and Lea agrees with him. I think that was conclusive enough.

I don't remember that. I thought GS was the book that gave hints that Justin wasn't all bad, but maybe I'm wrong and need to do a reread.

Justin was one of the bad guys. He would not save Elaine if his own life was on the line.

Maybe, and more likely true than not, but there is absolutely room for reasonable doubt.

[jonas]

I agree with it being Outsidery. It is the details I am curious about.

I'm quite curious on the ruby in his ear and it's ties to bloodline magic, especially considering other WCV/Outsider connections. Yea, yea, not what woj says, but woj says tongue and cheekly.

[Arjan]

They didn't enthrall each other, but I'm pretty sure they "invaded" each other's minds. Harry describes them playing war with each other's minds in GS. Now, technically, they had permission and they didn't actually make any changes to each others' minds or harm each other, so it wasn't literally invading. They didn't enthrall each other, and even if Justin enthralled Elaine with her permission, that was worse, but to me it if falls into the same category as snowballs v. stones.

It is fundamentally different. Not just because Justin was breaking the laws and Harry was not or because Harry was strengthening Molly and Justin was weakening her but also because messing with someones free will like that is fundamentally evil in the dresdenverse.

It looks like he was going to try to enthrall Harry as well, but we don't know that for certain and again,

Harry told us in ghost story and these are his true memories. Lea confirmed it.

Justin could have had misguided "benevolent" reasons for planning to enthrall Harry, such as training/nemesis detection.
 Did Luccio know she was enthralled?

After the fact and she told Harry how confused it made her, read their discussion at the end of turncoat. And Lucio was an experienced wizard, elaine was just a young girl.

The entire White Council is negligent on mental defense training. Maybe if Luccio had training in being enthralled she could have recognized and resisted the influence and La Fortier would still be alive.
 To take control of a potential starborn before she has come into her full power.
 True, but irrelevant.
 How? If she was still enthralled, she couldn't move until Justin was dead

Enthralled does not mean turned into a statue. She could certainly flee fire, that is instinctual.

and the spell was broken, and at that point there is a good chance it would have been too late. Either Justin removed the enthrallment, saved her, or Elaine already knew how to open Ways to the NN and was therefore more powerful at that age than we know.

Elaine probably had simmilar connections to summer as harry had to winter. They found her and they made a deal.

I don't remember that. I thought GS was the book that gave hints that Justin wasn't all bad, but maybe I'm wrong and need to do a reread.
 Maybe, and more likely true than not, but there is absolutely room for reasonable doubt.

Lea is always good for some insights when she doing her duty as godmother:

“That was my first fight,” I said quietly to my godmother. “I’d never used magic to hurt anything before.” I rubbed my hand over my head. “If I hadn’t cut class that day . . . I don’t know. I might never have become what I did.”
    “Is that the lesson you took from the memory?” Lea asked, her smile spreading. “You were clearly being prepared to be an enforcer.”
    “It seems that way,” I hedged, trying to read her expression. “But Justin never actually tried to get me to hurt anyone.”
    “Why would he wish you to be armed against him before he was certain of your loyalty?” Lea asked. “He would have. It was inevitable.”
    “Probably,” I said. “But there’s no way we can know, really. It’s a long way from breaking boards in practice to breaking bones in life.”
    “Quite. Because convincing a young mortal to believe that it is right and proper to use magic for violence is a delicate process and one that cannot be rushed.”
    I grunted and leaned my head back against the wall of my grave.
    “All the wishing in the world will not change the past, my godson,” Lea said. “You would like to believe that perhaps Justin had hidden good intentions of some sort. That what happened between you was some kind of misunderstanding. But you understood him perfectly.”
    “Yeah. Probably. I’d forgotten how much it hurt—that’s all,” I said quietly. “I’d forgotten how much I loved him. How much I wanted him to be proud of me.”
    “Children are vulnerable,” Lea said. “They are easily deceived and notoriously subject to such delusions. You are no longer a child.”

That seems enough for me to dispell all notions of a good justin.

[Talby16]

Thanks for digging that quote up. Should put the good justin theory to bed.

[wardenferry419]

I agree. Justin is not redeemable.

[Kindler]

Thanks for digging that quote up. Should put the good justin theory to bed.

I don't think he was good exactly, but I think, in his mind, he thought he was doing something necessary. It doesn't make what he did okay, but we don't know why he did what he did. If it was power for power's sake, sure, that's pretty much my definition of evil. His motivation is important, and it hasn't been conclusively stated. Lea's statement is based on her knowledge and interpretation; she's likely right, but I still want to know why Justin was cultivating starborns specifically.

Interesting thought on Elaine's connections to Summer mirroring Harry's to Winter. Makes me wonder more about Elaine's parents.

[Talby16]

I don't think he was good exactly, but I think, in his mind, he thought he was doing something necessary. It doesn't make what he did okay, but we don't know why he did what he did. If it was power for power's sake, sure, that's pretty much my definition of evil. His motivation is important, and it hasn't been conclusively stated. Lea's statement is based on her knowledge and interpretation; she's likely right, but I still want to know why Justin was cultivating starborns specifically.

Interesting thought on Elaine's connections to Summer mirroring Harry's to Winter. Makes me wonder more about Elaine's parents.

Valid points. He was probably perfectly justified in his own mind for doing what he did. He could be evil and seeking power or he could have been preparing for an upcoming storm (maybe he saw the Outsider threat). Whatever his plan, I agree that with an earlier poster that subjugating someone's free will crossed the line into evil territory. Hopefully we will continue to get peaks behind the curtain about Justin's past and Harry's time with him.

[Kindler]

I'm willing to bet quite a bit that we will get a full account of Justin's motives by the end of the books, possibly directly from the source if he's still kicking (or other magic shenanigans). Eb kept journals. Maybe Justin did, too.

Or, you know, Bob.

[wardenferry419]

I think Justin might have been Elaine's father.