Nicodemus wants to be God

[wardenferry419]

If deirdre returns it will be as a spirit near Nico's end.

[Ananda]

No....  She didn't die for people.  She did it for her father.

She gave her life to save the universe. Also, the jesus mantle bearer’s “father” was involved in sending him on that mission as well.

[SintraEdrien]

I don't have my copy handy, but I suggest you follow Hades' advice to harry about re-checking his sources and what Hades' judgements were like, and how they might apply to one such as Dierdre/her Denarian.



:|

[groinkick]

She gave her life to save the universe. Also, the jesus mantle bearer’s “father” was involved in sending him on that mission as well.

Rising from death, and defeating sin by rising to save humankind is not the same as dying to save the universe as you describe.  I also seriously doubt that she did it purely as a selfless act.  To think she did it to be selfless goes against everything we have seen from the Denarians to this point.

[jonas]

Rising from death, and defeating sin by rising to save humankind is not the same as dying to save the universe as you describe.  I also seriously doubt that she did it purely as a selfless act.  To think she did it to be selfless goes against everything we have seen from the Denarians to this point.

Dying for someone you love IS pretty selfless even if it IS for your father. Not humanity, not really.

[groinkick]

Dying for someone you love IS pretty selfless even if it IS for your father. Not humanity, not really.

We don't know their motivation.  For all we know he had promised to bring her back through some kind of ritual with the relics.  That may have been a lie, or is a real plan.  We just don't know.

Proclaiming she died for all of us, and may somehow get a Jesus Mantle goes against everything I have seen from Dresden Files lore.

[wardenferry419]

If Deirdre is the Messiah; I'll go wait in line for the first train to Purgatory.

[jonas]

We don't know their motivation.  For all we know he had promised to bring her back through some kind of ritual with the relics.  That may have been a lie, or is a real plan.  We just don't know.

Proclaiming she died for all of us, and may somehow get a Jesus Mantle goes against everything I have seen from Dresden Files lore.

Nic done said it right to her face, her motivation was love. "you'll be safe here from the enemy." doesn't imply a backdoor plan what so ever. Her motivation was she thought she was helping her dad save the world.... considering YOU directly said much the same

No....  She didn't die for people.  She did it for her father.

So i'm not sure why your arguing this except your erroneously connecting it to the other idea as below.

I wasn't saying it was Jesus like at all, so mayhaps you should save the argument for those whom do?

[Ananda]

Rising from death, and defeating sin by rising to save humankind is not the same as dying to save the universe as you describe.  I also seriously doubt that she did it purely as a selfless act.  To think she did it to be selfless goes against everything we have seen from the Denarians to this point.

She told Dresden that she was trying to save the universe. I think she was unusually candid in her talk with Dresden, revealing herself a bit. She was on the cusp of ultimate sacrifice and so, I think, open. Her selfless sacrifice was for the greater good as she saw it. There are plenty of stories about redemption and change. Why can’t Deirdre’s be one? I don’t actually think this mantle acquisition will happen, but it is parallel adjacent to the myth and it’s not impossible that this sort of selfless sacrifice for the universe is how the jesus mantle is acquired.

And, it could be a fun twist if Deirdre came back as the jesus mantle holder. That would put Nic in the role of the father figure in the trinity. Plenty of posters here predict some sort of redemption for Nic, so why not? It’s not like the mythical figures who have held roles in this construct are fluffy bunny good creatures, after all. They did plenty of petty stuff, wholesale slaughter and nastiness.

Also, keep in mind this is all taking place in a fantasy universe where all this myth and magic is real, not our universe.

[groinkick]

Nic done said it right to her face, her motivation was love. "you'll be safe here from the enemy." doesn't imply a backdoor plan what so ever. Her motivation was she thought she was helping her dad save the world.... considering YOU directly said much the same So i'm not sure why your arguing this except your erroneously connecting it to the other idea as below.

I wasn't saying it was Jesus like at all, so mayhaps you should save the argument for those whom do?

I quoted you, but most of my answer was actually in response to another post.  I doubt that her motive was entirely selfless, other than her devotion to her father.  That may actually be the biggest evil of all.  She did it for him, while he sacrificed her for his self interest.  Now with her gone, he's got little left to lose.  This may have been more an Anduriel ploy to remove what little humanity Nicodemus had left. 

Again I see this all leading to a greater evil, not some sort of good.

[groinkick]

She told Dresden that she was trying to save the universe. I think she was unusually candid in her talk with Dresden, revealing herself a bit. She was on the cusp of ultimate sacrifice and so, I think, open. Her selfless sacrifice was for the greater good as she saw it. There are plenty of stories about redemption and change. Why can’t Deirdre’s be one? I don’t actually think this mantle acquisition will happen, but it is parallel adjacent to the myth and it’s not impossible that this sort of selfless sacrifice for the universe is how the jesus mantle is acquired.

And, it could be a fun twist if Deirdre came back as the jesus mantle holder. That would put Nic in the role of the father figure in the trinity. Plenty of posters here predict some sort of redemption for Nic, so why not? It’s not like the mythical figures who have held roles in this construct are fluffy bunny good creatures, after all. They did plenty of petty stuff, wholesale slaughter and nastiness.

Also, keep in mind this is all taking place in a fantasy universe where all this myth and magic is real, not our universe.

Sometimes I have to remove my serious hat.  I see where you're going.  It's kind of like me wanting to see Darth Vader as a good guy.  At the end of the story he changed his ways, and it was neat to see someone beyond redemption (besides killing millions, billions? he had murdered children with his own light saber) find redemption.

I see the desire to see at least some of the Denarians turn out to be good.  I disagree, but perhaps some of them will find redemption, including Deirdre.  That being said, Hades didn't seem to think she deserved any kind of redemption, but instead horrible torment.

[jonas]

I quoted you, but most of my answer was actually in response to another post.  I doubt that her motive was entirely selfless, other than her devotion to her father.  That may actually be the biggest evil of all.  She did it for him, while he sacrificed her for his self interest.  Now with her gone, he's got little left to lose.  This may have been more an Anduriel ploy to remove what little humanity Nicodemus had left. 

Again I see this all leading to a greater evil, not some sort of good.

I could certainly get behind that idea.

[Ananda]

Sometimes I have to remove my serious hat.  I see where you're going.  It's kind of like me wanting to see Darth Vader as a good guy.  At the end of the story he changed his ways, and it was neat to see someone beyond redemption (besides killing millions, billions? he had murdered children with his own light saber) find redemption.

I see the desire to see at least some of the Denarians turn out to be good.  I disagree, but perhaps some of them will find redemption, including Deirdre.  That being said, Hades didn't seem to think she deserved any kind of redemption, but instead horrible torment.

I don’t actually think this is where the story is going, but rather extending out a thought and highlighting the parallel. One point, though; you guys seem to be diminishing Deirdre’s ability to make her own choices and ascribing power to others. Look again at the talk she has with Dresden; she is a true believer in her cause. Her eyes are open. She is going to save the universe! Whether there are strings being pulled to create this scenario is irrelevant as all situations are contrived at some level and free will is an illusion.

Also, what Hades thinks in context of Deirdre and Nic motivations doesn’t matter.  They didn’t consult him regarding their plan to save the universe. Change the locale and his opinion about Deirdre is just some random being’s opinion and that hardly matters. Unfortunately for messiah Deirdre, the venue is not the best for her.  And, torturing someone for eternity sounds really sick (not to mention Dresden wishing her punishment in that place). That’s way worse than Deirdre has ever done on camera. ;P

[wardenferry419]

Believing in a cause does not make the cause, by itself, good. And, as for eternally punishing someone for an extended lifetime of evil acts that is called accountability.

[groinkick]

Believing in a cause does not make the cause, by itself, good. And, as for eternally punishing someone for an extended lifetime of evil acts that is called accountability.

I wonder if Nicodemuse's last request/deal will be for Harry to save his daughter.  Because Harry loves his daughters so much he will agree to help her because she was innocent, and very young when she was corrupted by the Coin.