A pattern in last 4 books

[jonas]

While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing. 

Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife.  Further she KNEW there was an afterlife.  Granted she didn't think it thought.  Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.

That's just how Harry interpreted it... I think 'the enemy' refers to Nemesis in this case... and is what they are trying to save the world from.

[Ananda]

While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing. 

Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife.  Further she KNEW there was an afterlife.  Granted she didn't think it thought.  Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.

That's not why she sacrificed herself. Her father just reminded her that she'd be safe from the adversary there as a silver lining (and the enemy or whatever was not defined). She gave her life to save the universe even knowing there is some sort of afterlife in that universe. I think she's the best character in the book. I'd actually read one of the short stories if it was about her and gave her perspective.

She was born into the life of Nic et al. She was just as much a victim as any other. Did she ever have a chance to be something else? I think not. Yet, even growing up as she did, she still chose to be the one who does the right thing as she saw it to save everything and everyone. Things aren't black and white.

[wardenferry419]

What would be the appropriate Hades-related torment for someone who spent a lifetime slicing people up?

[Mira]

   I don't think we can judge Harry or any parent saying that he or she would be willing to let the world burn to save his or her child.  That isn't selfish, it is called being a parent...  It was said at the height of frustration and emotion, only in Harry's case he possibly had the power to do it... The important thing is, he didn't do it and he found another way to save his child.

[Arjan]

The ideal of a functional society should be "Don't f#(k with me, I won't F#(k with you and we"ll get stuff done."  Pretty simple to understand; but, for some reason, difficult in the application.

Impossible in a world with limitted resources. People have to work with each other and compete with each other at the same time.

Deirdre was a grown woman and she made her choice; but, I hate Nico for giving his child that choice to begin with.

There is the free will argument again but how much of that is real if you are brainwashed from the beginning? How young was Deirdre when she got that coin?

No reason to let her run loose, she was a danger to society and there was not much to do about that. You have to be a knight of the cross to even try.

[wardenferry419]

I would say we are in agreement about the cooperation/competition situation.

[Kindler]

   I don't think we can judge Harry or any parent saying that he or she would be willing to let the world burn to save his or her child.  That isn't selfish, it is called being a parent...  It was said at the height of frustration and emotion, only in Harry's case he possibly had the power to do it... The important thing is, he didn't do it and he found another way to save his child.

Pretty much how I feel about it. Very few atrocities I wouldn't commit to save my kids. And if someone took them? I'd leave a path of destruction in a straight line between me and them that was visible from orbit.

[Talby16]

Wow, this is a pretty deep thread. Count me in the "letting the world burn" category when it comes to saving my child. I bear no animosity towards Dresden for saying that. It does not cheapen his character in my eyes. As Mira says, the important thing is that Harry saved his daughter in the most efficient way possible. It did have unintended consequences with regards to the Fomer, but the war was never going to end cleanly no matter which side won.

As for Deirdre, she and Nic are clearly in the end justify the means camp. They sought to save the world by changing the world into one after their own image. Within the Nickelhead camp she will probably go into the books as a savior figure or martyr depending on who you ask. From the outside she will be regarded as a tragedy. Someone who spent their whole life within that "society" and had no real chance to choose a different path. Is it really a sacrifice if the choice is not really a choice at all?

[Rasins]

That's just how Harry interpreted it... I think 'the enemy' refers to Nemesis in this case... and is what they are trying to save the world from.

It's possible that he meant Nemesis, but I really don't think so.  Reason being is that if the Outsiders make it inside, ALL of reality is in jeopardy.  That would include Hades.  It would also include Heaven/Hell.  So, she isn't safe from the Enemy if that enemy is nemesis.

On the other hand, she is safe from TWG.

That's not why she sacrificed herself. Her father just reminded her that she'd be safe from the adversary there as a silver lining (and the enemy or whatever was not defined). She gave her life to save the universe even knowing there is some sort of afterlife in that universe. I think she's the best character in the book. I'd actually read one of the short stories if it was about her and gave her perspective.

She was born into the life of Nic et al. She was just as much a victim as any other. Did she ever have a chance to be something else? I think not. Yet, even growing up as she did, she still chose to be the one who does the right thing as she saw it to save everything and everyone. Things aren't black and white.

I think Nick's goals were her primary reason for sacrificing herself, however I think avoiding Hell was part of the consideration.  Otherwise, why not just sacrifice one of his toungless followers?  They are fanatic enough to being willing to die for Nick. 

No there was more there than just saving the world.

[Mira]

While Deirdre did allow herself to be sacrificed, it wasn't really all that brave a thing. 

Remember she was also attempting to avoid her fate in the hands of TWG by fleeing to another pantheon's afterlife.  Further she KNEW there was an afterlife.  Granted she didn't think it thought.  Hades will give her her just rewards, but it's no lake of fire.

Yeah,  as pointed out, Nic lied to her about her fate in Hades verses if she died and had to face Judgement...  Harry even bought into it until Hades assured him that she will get everything coming that she deserved...

[Rasins]

Yeah,  as pointed out, Nic lied to her about her fate in Hades verses if she died and had to face Judgement...  Harry even bought into it until Hades assured him that she will get everything coming that she deserved...

If she was doing good, she'd be going to the Elysian Fields.  I think she's headed to Tartarus.

[jonas]

It's possible that he meant Nemesis, but I really don't think so.  Reason being is that if the Outsiders make it inside, ALL of reality is in jeopardy.  That would include Hades.  It would also include Heaven/Hell.  So, she isn't safe from the Enemy if that enemy is nemesis.

They smatter both of them with all kinds of N referencing but they casually refer to TWG as 'the enemy'? Except they aren't trying to save us from TWG i'm sure.

[Rasins]

They smatter both of them with all kinds of N referencing but they casually refer to TWG as 'the enemy'? Except they aren't trying to save us from TWG i'm sure.

Are you sure?  TWG IS the enemy of the fallen angels.

Now, I'm sure that they are trying to save the universe from the Outsiders, but ... 2-birds, 1-stone.

[Kindler]

"Enemy" and "Adversary" are often used to refer to Lucifer. Could be that he was sending Deirdre to Hades to prevent punishment from Lucy. Weren't the Fallen crammed into the Coins by Lucy because they were enemies?

Just, you know, throwing out another possible things to muddy the waters.

[Avernite]

I have always heard good vs evil is about who you sacrifice.

A) Good (period) will sacrifice parts of the self to improve the bigger picture.
B) Good idealists will sacrifice the self to improve the bigger picture.
C) Evil idealists will sacrifice others to improve the bigger picture.
D) Evil (period) will sacrifice others to improve the self.

Looking this way, Harry has shades of B & C during changes. This puts him below Charity, who seems to hang about more on the B side during Proven Guilty (of course so did Harry during that book).
Deirde in Skin Game is firmly at B, and hence, was better than Harry during Changes.
Nic in Skin Game is firmly at C, and hence is pretty nasty but not the worst. Aurora was here too, if she hadn't been so obviously wrong (we don't know about Nic yet).
Papa Raith seemed to be pretty much at D, as are most of the villains-du-jour (Warlocks, Sells, etcetera).

Category C makes for better villains, because you occassionally wonder if they have a point. Maybe Deirdre or Nicodemus really needed to die to save the world.