Was Ascher telling the truth?

[wardenferry419]

I agree that the White Council needs much better PR.

The problem with the Wardens as an organization, I think, is that there aren't enough of them. The White Council is a global organization, and a few hundred Wardens to police things. You're talking one Warden per, what, fifteen, twenty million people? Considering that they like to work in teams when handling true threats, it's no wonder that they have such a terrifying reputation. They only show up when things are bad, and when they do show up, people die. They're like plague doctors, except, you know, plague doctors actually carried the disease from house to house on their clothes.

I think that the real issue is pretty much a matter of scale. They have such a limited number of assets that there is no prevention; they're not an acceptable deterrent, and the sheer size of humanity over the past century is making their job that much harder (it's quintupled). If they had enough Wardens to have two or three in each major city, even that might not be enough, but it'd be a start. They don't have a presence like cops do—the "cop on every street corner" proposal helped (though how much of an impact it had is debatable, considering it went into effect during an economic boom and at the tail end of a pretty dramatic demographic shift) on crime reduction. Police trust is higher where people know their local beat cops. It is my belief that people don't trust institutions by reflex; they trust people, and that trust may extend to their organization over time.

Their lack of notable presence directly led to the minor talents' willingness to believe that Wardens were murdering them in White Night, in my opinion; Wardens were faceless enforcers to them, not, you know, people.

As for Arjan's thoughts on the topic, I believe that any (and every) organization is susceptible to corruption and abuse, the Wardens included. Considering the numbers involved—again, numbering in the hundreds—it is perfectly possible to introduce additional oversight without hindering their ability to respond to threats.

I do think it's notable, however, that the only confirmed outlier that we've seen on page is Peabody, the one person who seemed least likely to be a backstabbing murderer.

And Peabody was not a warden; he was admin.

[wardenferry419]

  Okay, so the Wardens are the White Council's cops...  They arrest and enforce the Laws of Magic... However they are not supposed to sit in judgement of would be law breakers, that is the Senior Council's job.  With the wars and modern times both are spread pretty thin...  Also there are good and bad Wardens, if they are took quick on the draw and a young would be warlock loses his or  her head before trial, most in the Council look the other way, makes their job easier because they feel they don't have the time to waste on a kid that no one will put his or her own head on the line for and who is a lost cause anyway..    So from her perspective, Asher was telling the truth, if she has surrendered the odds of her keeping her head were not in her favor...  The chances were also good that she would have lost her head before a trial was arranged in the first place with no questions asked..

   Their responsibilities include protecting both the Senior Council and other White Council members from attacks, dealing with the Vampire Courts, the Faerie, and warlocks and serving as judge, jury and executioner when in the field against violators of the Seven Laws of magic. Many warlocks are killed resisting arrest, or apprehended after their crimes have earned them a death sentences. Hearings before the Senior Council are rare. Dresden Wiki

[Mira]

   Their responsibilities include protecting both the Senior Council and other White Council members from attacks, dealing with the Vampire Courts, the Faerie, and warlocks and serving as judge, jury and executioner when in the field against violators of the Seven Laws of magic. Many warlocks are killed resisting arrest, or apprehended after their crimes have earned them a death sentences. Hearings before the Senior Council are rare. Dresden Wiki

No, they are not judge and jury!  The accused are entitled to a trial, even if it has evolved to almost a kangaroo type event where the outcome is predestined because of 1] practicality, not enough wizards willing to risk to the Doom to rehab a young would be warlock, 2] because the Merlin in particular believes the results are mixed at best to disastrous if the rehab fails...   So it may have evolved to a point where young offenders are simply killed for a variety of reasons by the Wardens, but that isn't how it is supposed to be..  So these days the Council does a lot of looking the other way unless someone like Harry insists that a trial is held..   The whole point of the trial for the Korean kid in my opinion was an object lesson for Harry by the Merlin that trials are mostly a waste of time..

[Mr. Death]

They're not "entitled" to a trial -- the vast majority of Warlocks are executed in the field by Wardens.

[Mira]

They're not "entitled" to a trial -- the vast majority of Warlocks are executed in the field by Wardens.

That doesn't mean they weren't entitled to on, just that for the most part, they don't do them anymore for lack of the manpower...  The response when Harry asked for one for Molly was, " I thought we didn't do that anymore..."   If what you say was true, Morgan would have given Harry the chop long ago because until the end he never stopped believing he was a warlock...

[Arjan]

That doesn't mean they weren't entitled to on, just that for the most part, they don't do them anymore for lack of the manpower...  The response when Harry asked for one for Molly was, " I thought we didn't do that anymore..."   If what you say was true, Morgan would have given Harry the chop long ago because until the end he never stopped believing he was a warlock...

Or because, as Harry said, the white council has a lot of traditions but not many rules. There is no right of trial and the word trial is a mockery anyway.

[forumghost]

Well, not quite a mockery, since they do require a fair bit of evidence to convict, but yes.

The real problem is not the trials but the rest of the process- The Doom is far to harshly restricted and far too rarely leveled.

[wardenferry419]

That doesn't mean they weren't entitled to on, just that for the most part, they don't do them anymore for lack of the manpower...  The response when Harry asked for one for Molly was, " I thought we didn't do that anymore..."   If what you say was true, Morgan would have given Harry the chop long ago because until the end he never stopped believing he was a warlock...

Well, I think that since Harry did have a trial; that he was now part of the legal system. Prior to a trial a warden could use their own judgement. After a trial and a verdict by the Senior Council, he was on probation. Add in the fact that another wizard's life was tied to his probation.
"It is considered a form of probation and a rare occurrance because it requires a member of the White Council to speak in the defense of the accused. If a young spellcaster uses black magic or breaks the Laws of Magic, they are put on trial; the Doom of Damocles is only granted if a member of the White Council speaks on their behalf and manages to sway three-fourths of the council. The defendant is then placed under the care and responsibility of that particular member to be trained; if they fail to learn and use black magic again, they will be killed, along with the senior member that they were being trained by." Dresdenfiles wikia.

[LordDresden2]

They're not "entitled" to a trial -- the vast majority of Warlocks are executed in the field by Wardens.

I actually suspect that most such encounters probably happen after it's well past the point of no return, so it's not so much an execution as 'died in combat' or something along those lines.

[LordDresden2]

Or because, as Harry said, the white council has a lot of traditions but not many rules. There is no right of trial and the word trial is a mockery anyway.

How so?  How would you do the trial differently?  Other than making sure the whole Senior Council carries it out, I mean?

[LordDresden2]

Well, not quite a mockery, since they do require a fair bit of evidence to convict, but yes.

The real problem is not the trials but the rest of the process- The Doom is far to harshly restricted and far too rarely leveled.

Honestly...how do we know that?

We don't have much in the way of information on the recidivism rate of warlocks, what we do have tends toward:  they usually repeat offend.  Apparently, over the centuries, the Council has tried a lot of different things to try to rehabilitate them, even Harry admits this, and he also tells Karrin that pretty much none of it ever worked very well.

We know that it's possible for a warlock to turn away...at least in the early stages, sometimes, with help.  We've see it with Molly and possibly with Harry.  (We don't technically know if Harry ever was one, even he isn't sure exactly what happened in that fight with Justin).  It looks as if it happened with Margaret, though we don't know the details and how hard it was for her or how much help she needed.

But note that even in the case of Molly, it was a major struggle, she nearly fell several times, she needed help from Harry, her parents, her siblings, Lea, and to a lesser degree others as well,  to get back on track, and it took a long time.  That was after one significant offense, with semi-good intentions and results that were not 100% bad.

What if she had messed up 3 or 4 times before Harry caught her? What if her initial act had been less mixed, more purely selfish?  What if she hadn't had the family she has, the father she has, and a Wizard of the White Council who knew her since she was a kid?

The Doom is harsh, but I don't think we can say with confidence that the Council should allow it more often or less stringently.

(Also, I suspect the Doom is only required for convicted warlocks, I doubt a talent caught in the early stages of the grey areas necessary requires it.)

[LordDresden2]

I hadn't thought what you call a group of wizards; but, an argument seems appropriate, don't it?

That's what I'm calling a group of Wizards until JB says otherwise. :lol:

Most of your responses I have no problem with. The only one that got me was the Ben Kenobi comment. At most, I would chalk it up to grey magic. Harry did something similar in PG to a stressed cop after the con attack.

It's near the edge of the grey area, but it's very dark grey at best.  It's like the First Law, you could probably make a self-defense case for what Kenobi did that the Council might buy, if they agreed that the circumstances were such that you had no other better options and what you doing in the first place didn't make the whole situation your fault in the first place.

But even that little bit of coercion is going to do some damage, to your target and you.  It's how the Korean kid got started, more or less, just a little harmless manipulation...

I've commented before that in the DV, I can imagine back in 1977 a Warden sitting in the movie theatre watching the first Star Wars movie, seeing Kenobi do that mind trick, seeing it portrayed as harmless, effective, and easy, looking around him at a theatre full of kids, teens, and young adults, and imagining a whole population of kids, teens, and young adults, seeing it across the world, including untrained talents, and thinking to himself something like "Oh Bleeping Crap."

[Arjan]

How so?  How would you do the trial differently?  Other than making sure the whole Senior Council carries it out, I mean?

You could start with using a language the accused would actually understand.

[Kindler]

You could start with using a language the accused wold actually understand.

Fair point; they aren't given the opportunity to defend themselves. Hell, I studied Latin for five years, and that was just to read and write it; there are way too many oddities (considering "V" is almost always pronounced as a "W," for instance, or that sentence structure is weird and relies on suffixes way, way too much) to make it practical after the rise of Germanic and Germanic-influenced languages most Western hemisphere residents are familiar with. There's a reason Greek persisted as a spoken language in Rome.

[Arjan]

It acts like a self fulfilling prophesy. If the wardens come for you you act like a cornered animal because you are. This pushes them further over the edge.

It is even worse. The widespread believe in how the laws and warlocks work combined with how the dresdenverse works has a power of its own. Those who are out are pushed further out.