Was Ascher telling the truth?

[LordDresden2]

You know they are going to kill you mostly without a trial and sometimes with a show trial without any proper defense. There is a difference.Sure but that does not make her tale not true. Those cops are just vigilantes recognized by no proper state on earth anyway.

They're recognized by the White Council, which is what matters.  The Council would point out that they never authorized any state to be involved in the issue.

That does not mean the wardens are necessarily wrong but it has nothing to do with morality, justice or even law. More with magical health control eradicating everything that can be a risk.

True.  The Laws are much more like prophylactic measures than they are 'justice.'

[Arjan]

They're recognized by the White Council, which is what matters.  The Council would point out that they never authorized any state to be involved in the issue.

Every terrorist organisation could say that.

True.  The Laws are much more like prophylactic measures than they are 'justice.'

[wardenferry419]

I like that phrase "prophylactic measure." The wardens are the condoms of the White Council. They keep you from feeling the really fun stuff that can get you into bad trouble.

[Mr. Death]

While you're being attacked by rapists is generally not when you're thinking tactically and analytically enough to say, "OK, what's the minimal amount of force needed to safely make these guys back off."

When you're being attacked like that, the much more likely thing to go through your head is more along the lines of, "GET OFF ME GET AWAY DIE DIE DIE!"

And, again, her power is fire. It's already hard to control, let alone when you're overcome with fight-or-flight emotion. "Just burn them half to death" is just not a reasonable suggestion. It's even less reasonable than the whole "shoot to wound" argument, and that's saying something.

[Kindler]

The Wardens are of particular interest to me, after some extended study of criminal justice programs. Dresden uses cop analogies for them, but that doesn't really apply.

They're Special Forces. They're not investigating a crime, or bringing in someone for questioning, or even bringing in someone for a trial. They're getting to a high-priority target. If they can reasonably take that person down without undue risk to themselves, great. If not, lethal measures are necessary. You're dealing with warlocks, those who have enough power and a willingness to disregard the Laws. They can summon demons, kill with a ritual, or invade someone's mind if they're not prepared for it. They're dangerous threats that need to be neutralized.

The ones that get a trial are usually just for show, but that's because they always backslide. When a warlock backslides, people die. The two trials that we see include the Merlin personally soulgazing one (who was also obviously insane), and a full confession from another. Even Harry, who has huge reservations about the Wardens, recognizes that there really is only one way to deal with true warlocks. He argues for prevention, not clemency.

Anyway, that's what I think about it.

[Paviel]

I doubt she made it up entirely.  It's a poor liar who makes stuff up that can be easily fact checked like that.

But Ascher had a very good liar on her side, and there was no way that Harry could have fact-checked her claims before they would have been no longer relevant.

That said, I think it's more like Lasciel to play reverse psychology on Harry by telling him the truth in this instance, just to shake his faith in magic in case he succeeded in killing Ascher and then investigated her past more thoroughly.

[forumghost]

That's my take too.

Hannah was deliberately chosen as Lasciel's host precisely because of her history, gender, and personality, all to fuck with Dresden, make him more likely to overlook any suspicions he has, and more willing to hesitate when the time came.

Suffice to say that this failed.

[LordDresden2]

Every terrorist organisation could say that.

And if they have the power to back it up, it's true.  At the end of the day, anybody can claim authority, but to borrow a line from Tolkien, "a king he is who can hold his own'.

[LordDresden2]

The Wardens are of particular interest to me, after some extended study of criminal justice programs. Dresden uses cop analogies for them, but that doesn't really apply.

They're Special Forces. They're not investigating a crime, or bringing in someone for questioning, or even bringing in someone for a trial. They're getting to a high-priority target. If they can reasonably take that person down without undue risk to themselves, great. If not, lethal measures are necessary. You're dealing with warlocks, those who have enough power and a willingness to disregard the Laws. They can summon demons, kill with a ritual, or invade someone's mind if they're not prepared for it. They're dangerous threats that need to be neutralized.

The ones that get a trial are usually just for show, but that's because they always backslide. When a warlock backslides, people die. The two trials that we see include the Merlin personally soulgazing one (who was also obviously insane), and a full confession from another. Even Harry, who has huge reservations about the Wardens, recognizes that there really is only one way to deal with true warlocks. He argues for prevention, not clemency.

Anyway, that's what I think about it.

Harry himself once told Karrin that over the centuries, the Council has made many efforts to rehabilitate warlocks, and it always failed with the ones who have really gone bad.  Even Harry has had to reluctantly admit that the Council's attitude might be necessary, much as he loathes it.

That's what I meant above by 'prophylactic measures'.  The Council treats warlocks less as criminals and more like plague carriers.  Whether they're guilty or innocent, whether it's their fault or not, they cannot be allowed to spread the plague.  Likewise, protecting the public from a potential warlock takes priority over fairness.  That's pretty harsh, but at the same time, stop and think how much harm a warlock can do if he or she runs loose for long.

That said, the Council could use a better agitprop operation, for their own sake and the sake of yet-to-fall potential warlocks.

[Arjan]

And if they have the power to back it up, it's true.  At the end of the day, anybody can claim authority, but to borrow a line from Tolkien, "a king he is who can hold his own'.

But a state does not hide. It claims territory and authority over people in a clear visible way. Terrorist organisations and criminal gangs hide.

[forumghost]

But a state does not hide. It claims territory and authority over people in a clear visible way. Terrorist organisations and criminal gangs hide.

Criminal gangs and Cable companies ALSO claim territory and authority over people in a clearly visible way in some areas, but that doesn't make them states.

The White Council has existed in it's current state since (iirc) before the fall of Rome, as a International Power.

If anything, their relative age and power would make them the legitimate state by the right of 'here first suckaz', and other nations the criminals trying to take their territory.

[Arjan]

Criminal gangs and Cable companies ALSO claim territory and authority over people in a clearly visible way in some areas, but that doesn't make them states.

Necessary but not sufficient condition.

The White Council has existed in it's current state since (iirc) before the fall of Rome, as a International Power.

More like a secret society. You could make a youtube conspiracy video about them.

If anything, their relative age and power would make them the legitimate state by the right of 'here first suckaz', and other nations the criminals trying to take their territory.

They made no visible claim. No flag, signpost, travel documents, international relations with other states here on earth, ....

[wardenferry419]

I think that the WC is trying to balance out their place between two worlds, the mortal and the supernatural.

[Mira]

I think that the WC is trying to balance out their place between two worlds, the mortal and the supernatural.

I think it more about finding themselves less relevant in a modern world, the time of the village wise woman or man has past.   Kids who show signs of talent no longer have any place to go or any knowledge of what it all means.  All they know is they have these cool talents and like normal kids everywhere they experiment with them and get into trouble.  Meanwhile the WC has been decimated by wars over the last thousand years and have spent their time navel gazing unlike Harry who has attempted to fit into the modern world openly as a practicing wizard.   As a result, zero tolerance has evolved into not just being the safest course for both worlds but the easiest to implement.  But as we all know zero tolerance policies are seriously flawed because there isn't a one size fits all and justice usually isn't served by it... But those those who advocate it will argue, it keeps everyone safe so it doesn't matter that perhaps a few talented babies who might make great wizards someday are thrown out with the bath water.

[wardenferry419]

The Paranet helps but the WC should expand it by hiring non-magic users to monitor the internet for  potentials.