Marcone's Age @ SF

[raidem]

I wanted to establish a lower limit on Marcone's apparent age via Priscilla's timeline, text, and WOJ's.  I say lower limit because as we have seen with Sarissa, Wizards, etc apparent age can be drastically different than actual age.  Much of this is brought over from the Harry/Marcone Relationship thread as I believe discussion focused on his age is more appropriate in its own thread.

Establishing lower limit on Marcone's age via Priscilla's timeline to include events surrounding Amanda Beckitt.

Amanda's birth via Priscilla's timeline prior to Storm Front
~13-17 14* BSF: Amanda Beckitt born.  [Age:0]

[2,4-7* 3 years BSF] What I could see was the Beckitt family. Husband, wife, daughter, a little girl maybe ten or eleven years old. [Age: 10-11]
She is "in her late teens or early twenties" in DM which takes place about 3 years after SF. [Age 18-23] [~16-17]

Murphy's jaw tensed, little motions at the corners of her face. Then she said, "Greg and Helen Beckitt. Three years ago, their daughter, Amanda, was killed in a cross fire.
Johnny Marcone's thugs were shooting it out with some of the Jamaican gang that was trying to muscle in on the territory back then. One of them shot the little girl. She lived for three weeks in intensive care and died when they took her off life support."
I didn't say anything. But I thought of Mrs. Beckitt's numb face and dead eyes.
"The Beckitts attempted to lodge a wrongful death suit against Johnny Marcone, but Marcone's lawyers were too good. They got it thrown out before it even went to court. And they never found the man who shot the little girl. Word has it that Marcone offered to pay them blood money. Make reparation. But they turned him down."

~3-4 BSF: Marco Vargassi decides Marcone has become a threat to his father Tony's organization and tries to stage his death. Amanda Beckitt, daughter of Helen and Greg, is shot.  She is about 10 or 11 at the time, and she is in her late teens to early twenties in DM.  Tony Vargassi bribes the medical examiner to forge Amanda's death certificate to protect his son.  The Vargassis are still in power at the time of "Restoration of Faith."

~2-3 BSF: Marcone learns of Amanda Beckitt, two years after her "death." per Marcone in DM

~2 BSF: Marcone topples the Vargassis and founds his own empire.

Now for Marcone

@BillyYank Marcone was a Marine. [Age>17 when he entered service]

I looked over my shoulder to see a very, very young-looking Marcone.
He wasn't wearing a business suit. He had on jeans and a black leather jacket. His hair was longish, a little mussed, and he also sported a stubble of beard that gave him the kind of rakish look that would attract attention from the girls who fantasized about indulging with a bad boy. [Age:?] [BSF]

"Gentleman" Johnny Marcone had been the thug to emerge on top of the pile after the Vargassi family had dissolved into internal strife. The police department saw Marcone as a mixed blessing, after years of merciless struggle and bloody exchanges with the Vargassis.

SF: Marcone's appearance during first Harry/Marcone encounter

Gentleman Johnny Marcone didn't look like the sort of man who would have my legs broken or my jaw wired shut. His salt-and-pepper hair was cut short, and there were lines from sun and smiling etched into the corners of his eyes. His eyes were the green of well-worn dollar bills. He seemed more like a college football coach: good-looking, tanned, athletic, and enthusiastic. The impression was reinforced by the men he kept with him.

Harry's Age 25@SF per Priscilla timeline.

25 BSF, October 31:  Harry is born.  Harry's mother, now Margaret Gwendolyn Dresden, dies in childbirth.  She is murdered by a ritual entropy curse, courtesy of Lord Raith. [Harry's Age SF=25]

Based on time of shootout, estimate of Amanda's birth, Harry's birth, and Marcone involvement in a shootout 2-7BSF at age no earlier than 18, I estimate that Marcone is at least 6-10 years older than Harry.

Priscilla's Timeline
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1592.0.html

[raidem]

Given this WOJ:"@BillyYank Marcone was a Marine", I really don't see Marcone on active duty as a Marine from the time of Amanda Beckitt's shooting onward. During this time, he is actively fighting to take over a criminal enterprise.  Therefore, he served as a Marine prior to his appearance as quoted below:

I looked over my shoulder to see a very, very young-looking Marcone.
He wasn't wearing a business suit. He had on jeans and a black leather jacket. His hair was longish, a little mussed, and he also sported a stubble of beard that gave him the kind of rakish look that would attract attention from the girls who fantasized about indulging with a bad boy.

Or, he joined the Marines after the shooting but didn't serve a full term, or much of a term at all. 
So, Marcone's age for me is at least 31-35 during SF, that is the lower limit then. Harry is 25 during SF per Priscilla timeline.

That said, we actually didn't see Marcone appearance in the shootout which "a very, very young-looking Marcone" is based off of; we saw his appearance via a soulgaze between Harry and Helen Beckitt. 

[Mira]

Given this WOJ:"@BillyYank Marcone was a Marine", I really don't see Marcone on active duty as a Marine from the time of Amanda Beckitt's shooting onward. During this time, he is actively fighting to take over a criminal enterprise.  Therefore, he served as a Marine prior to his appearance as quoted below:Or, he joined the Marines after the shooting but didn't serve a full term, or much of a term at all. 
So, Marcone's age for me is at least 31-35 during SF, that is the lower limit then. Harry is 25 during SF per Priscilla timeline.

That said, we actually didn't see Marcone appearance in the shootout which "a very, very young-looking Marcone" is based off of; we saw his appearance via a soulgaze between Harry and Helen Beckitt. 

Young looking is also very subjective,   some people have the kind of face that appears very young well into their thirties.. Others begin to look middle aged at thirty..

The man that Harry meets seems to me to be closer to forty if not older verses closer to thirty..

Which story is this from?  Was it a short story I don't recognize the initials for it.

Quote

    He wasn't wearing a business suit. He had on jeans and a black leather jacket. His hair was longish, a little mussed, and he also sported a stubble of beard that gave him the kind of rakish look that would attract attention from the girls who fantasized about indulging with a bad boy.

Or, he joined the Marines after the shooting but didn't serve a full term, or much of a term at all. 

And where exactly is it placed in the book timeline?

[raidem]

I added the first line of the quote as I didn't include it in the previous paste.

I looked over my shoulder to see a very, very young-looking Marcone.
He wasn't wearing a business suit. He had on jeans and a black leather jacket. His hair was longish, a little mussed, and he also sported a stubble of beard that gave him the kind of rakish look that would attract attention from the girls who fantasized about indulging with a bad boy.

This quote is from White Knight during the soul gaze between Harry and Helen Beckitt when Harry is trying to decide if Helen is involved in the Ordo murders.

It (time of shootout when Amanda gets shot at apparent age 10-11) falls in Priscilla's timeline of 3-4 BSF but that depends on the age of Amanda with her being in DM as "late teens or early twenties." My math has it being between say 3-7 years BSF.  There is further restraints on the timeline of the shooting though where Marcone learns about Amanda surviving 2 years after the shooting, around the time of him taking over Chicago's criminal underworld which according to the timeline occurs 2 years BSF.  So, the shooting seems to be 4 years BSF.

BSF=Before Storm Front.
The

very, very young-looking Marcone

reference is from Harry's perspective in WK looking back at events some years prior to SF.

[Rhetoric]

Murphy's jaw tensed, little motions at the corners of her face. Then she said, "Greg and Helen Beckitt. Three years ago, their daughter, Amanda, was killed in a cross fire. Johnny Marcone's thugs were shooting it out with some of the Jamaican gang that was trying to muscle in on the territory back then. One of them shot the little girl. She lived for three weeks in intensive care and died when they took her off life support."

"When did you find out about the girl?"

"Two years later," [Marcone] said. "Everything was set up through a dummy corporation's trust fund."

I don't have anything to add to the conversation. Just wanted to throw in some in-book references.

[wardenferry419]

How about creating a poll to estimate Marcone's age at the beginning of Storm Front?  Maybe using 5 year increments starting with Harry's age of 25.

[raidem]

I was thinking about that when I made it just kinda forgot, didn't get around to it.  I'll add one.  I'll start with your suggestion. 

One thing that would throw a huge curveball is if Marcone is some sort of scion where he can be much older than his appearance suggests.

[wardenferry419]

I went with 36-40. So, he would have been too young for Vietnam but not too young for Grenada (1983). Marcone must have seen action somewhere. Desert Storm (1991) is a possible as well.

[jonas]

doesn't he still have salt n pepper hair now though? Just wondering cause that would effect my choice.

[wardenferry419]

I thought the latest description used silvery but I could be mistaken.

[raidem]

Some years prior to SF [4* years BSF?] [my estimate was 3-7 years BSF]

I looked over my shoulder to see a very, very young-looking Marcone.
He wasn't wearing a business suit. He had on jeans and a black leather jacket. His hair was longish, a little mussed, and he also sported a stubble of beard that gave him the kind of rakish look that would attract attention from the girls who fantasized about indulging with a bad boy.
His eyes were still green—but they were the green of a summer hunter's blind, bright and intelligent and predatory, but touched with more… something. Humor, maybe. More life.
And he was skinnier. Not a lot skinnier or anything, but it surprised me how much younger it and the other minor changes made him look.

SF: Marcone's appearance during first Harry/Marcone encounter

Gentleman Johnny Marcone didn't look like the sort of man who would have my legs broken or my jaw wired shut. His salt-and-pepper hair was cut short, and there were lines from sun and smiling etched into the corners of his eyes. His eyes were the green of well-worn dollar bills. He seemed more like a college football coach: good-looking, tanned, athletic, and enthusiastic. The impression was reinforced by the men he kept with him.

SG: [Don't put Skin Game age down in poll, only Storm Front age]

Seated at her right hand, wearing a charcoal-grey suit, was Gentleman Johnnie Marcone, Baron of Chicago under the Unseelie Accords—and made so, at least in part, by my own signature. There might have been slightly more silver at his temples than the last time I’d seen him, but it only made him look more distinguished. Otherwise, he looked exactly as he always did: calm, alert, impeccably groomed, and as merciful as a lawn mower’s blade.

So yeah, Marcone has salt and pepper hair as of SF that is going more salt than pepper, aka silver.

[Rhetoric]

Found all the relevant descriptions that I could. I might be missing others.

His salt-and-pepper hair was cut short, and there were lines from sun and smiling etched into the corners of his eyes.

His skin was weatherworn, with an outdoorsman's deep tan. Creases showed at the corners of his eyes and mouth, as though from smiling, but those smiles were rarely sincere.

Central casting would have placed him as the genial next-door neighbor. He didn't have the usual boater's tan, it being February and all, but the crow's-feet at the corners of his pale green eyes remained. He looked a lot like the fictional public image he projected-that of a normal, respectable businessman, an American tale of middle class made good.

He was a man a little over average height, somewhere in the late prime of his life, his dark hair flecked with grey.

He was an inch or two above average height, and had looked like an extremely fit forty-year-old ever since I had known him.

He looked like a man in his mature prime, neat and precise from his haircut to his polished leather shoes.

His short, conservatively cut hair was dark, except for just enough silver at his temples to announce a man in his physical and mental prime.

There might have been slightly more silver at his temples than the last time I’d seen him, but it only made him look more distinguished. Otherwise, he looked exactly as he always did: calm, alert, impeccably groomed, and as merciful as a lawn mower’s blade.

It appears as though somewhere between Dead Beat and Aftermath, Butcher decided to swap the salt-and-pepper look out for greying temples. That, or Marcone started getting fancy with hair dye.

Also, I don't know how much control Butcher exerted over the comics' character designs, but it's worth noting that in the comics Marcone's hair is colored grey overall.

[jonas]

Yeah I went with 36-40 too, but 40-45 might be more accurate. However at that age I would expect more mention of passing his prime, so stuck him as slightly younger.

[raidem]

Yeah, I have thought the comics have gotten his age wrong based off his hair.  He looks too old in them.

It is interesting though Harry says marcone has looked like a forty year old ever since he has known him in wk.

I still think he might be a scion that chose so his apparent age may be significantly different than his actual age.

[Mira]

Quote from: White Night

    He was an inch or two above average height, and had looked like an extremely fit forty-year-old ever since I had known him.


Quote from: Changes

    He looked like a man in his mature prime, neat and precise from his haircut to his polished leather shoes.


One has to ask, what age is considered "prime?"   That has different meanings depending on the age and sex of the observer, it could mean anywhere from mid to late twenties to fifty...  I looked it up and physically prime is considered around the age of 30-35, but mentally/emotional prime it can be as old as fifty to sixty..   So it is possible that Marcone is in his mid to late thirties when Harry meets him in Storm Front, and is between fifty and sixty years of age as of Skin Game..  He is in good health, no doubt works out, so he may look like a man in his early forties...