Author Topic: Does Molly still have her soul?  (Read 15051 times)

Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2017, 05:57:54 PM »
Well, if their souls are lost, what happens to them? There is direct confirmation of an afterlife in the Dresden Universe. Does that soul get to move on when the mantle gets crammed in there? Will it ever? Because if it just gets consumed, then Mab sentenced Molly, Maeve, and Sarissa to actual, literal oblivion, eternity-wise.
That is a very Christian point of view. Mab is not a Christian.

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“To fulfill one’s purpose is not to be a slave, my daughter,” Mab said.

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Offline groinkick

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2017, 06:03:29 PM »
That is a very Christian point of view. Mab is not a Christian.

It's a Dresden Files in book view.  Also the idea of a soul is not limited to Christianity.  Mab also is well aware of the White God, she makes note of it.  She has a more knowledgeable, and complete understanding to God's existence making her in some ways closer to God than the most devout religious person who will always have at least a tiny bit of doubt, doubt Mab does not share.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 06:20:16 PM by groinkick »
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2017, 06:45:11 PM »
Well, if their souls are lost, what happens to them? There is direct confirmation of an afterlife in the Dresden Universe. Does that soul get to move on when the mantle gets crammed in there? Will it ever? Because if it just gets consumed, then Mab sentenced Molly, Maeve, and Sarissa to actual, literal oblivion, eternity-wise.

It seems to be a process of diminishment rather than switching off at a certain discrete point. The WOJ was that Mab might still have the tiniest spark of a soul somewhere in there, but it would be hard to ever know for sure. (Mind you, given that he has also said regular mortals can lose their soul through enough bad choices, a millennium or so of having to make brutally utilitarian choices as the military commander of reality's defenses at the gates might have taken quite a toll on her even without the effects of a mantle).

Offline Kindler

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2017, 06:53:24 PM »
That is a very Christian point of view. Mab is not a Christian.

I didn't mean to imply Christianity, and if it came off that way, I'm sorry; I was speaking of souls. We have several entities and several afterlives, including, for instance, Hades. There is direct proof and evidence that souls live on past death in some form or another—even if it's torturous. If a soul is a requirement for the afterlife—again, I'm not saying Heaven—and the Fae mantles, in some way or another, eliminate the soul, what happens to it? Does it still exist? Or did Mab (and is she herself) consign at least two daughters and a relative innocent to eventual Oblivion—cessation of existence?

Can, for instance, Aurora's soul, what was left of it, experienced some kind of afterlife? Or was her soul completely consumed, and there was nothing that could move on? And, if it was consumed, what happened to it? It can't be destroyed; it has to be converted in some fashion, assuming that thermodynamics applies. Is it used up as fuel for the Mantle? What happens when it runs out completely?

It's like when Dresden worries about using too much Soulfire and, you know, dying. The Soulfire I can understand, because it's converting soul to energy multiplicatively. My questions are basically if there is a similar function that takes place with the mantles?

All that other stuff aside, even taking the Christian point of view into account—how will Michael, whose whole life is built around Catholicism, react if he finds out about the soul thing? From his perspective, assuming the above suppositions are true, his firstborn will never, no matter what, be able to join him in Paradise.

I'll be over here trying to get the image of a weeping Michael out of my head now.

Offline Mira

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2017, 06:54:05 PM »
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It can be the thing Bob sees that you can exchange with other humans while hugging them or it can be an abstract thing, the essence of your being as Mother Summer describes it. Becoming evil can be described as loosing your soul because you are no longer the person you were so your essential You-ness is gone but you are still something.

  However does that mean you no longer have a soul?   Turning the argument on it's head, an evil person can repent and gain redemption, their "you-ness" has also totally changed.. So did they gain a soul?  They indeed had a "You-ness" before, but it was evil...   There are dark souls out there as well...

Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2017, 07:13:40 PM »
It's a Dresden Files in book view. 
A view of the dresden files in book christians.
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Also the idea of a soul is not limited to Christianity. 
It is also about what happens with it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if in the dresden files hindus get reincarnated and christians not. The books are pretty vague about what next is, it is entirely possible.

Besides knowing about the soul and an afterlife is not the same as valueing it. Maybe you want to escape the cycle. Maybe you want to stay behind as a shade to help your descendants. Maybe you want to find a purpose like Mab did.
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Mab also is well aware of the White God, she makes note of it.  She has a more knowledgeable, and complete understanding to God's existence making her in some ways closer to God than the most devout religious person who will always have at least a tiny bit of doubt, doubt Mab does not share.
The white god is a title you use if you are not a follower. The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future. Things change.

She knows Hades as well, a lot of souls went to the him in stead of the Christian afterlife. She probably expected to go somewhere else.

It is not just about what is but also about how you look at it. Why would she want to be a shade attending some god that is not hers? She has a purpose, she has fullfillment. Eternity is overrated.

Ask Gard, she will tell something similar.

I think Michael will be concerned but strangely enough I think Uriel is not, I do not see any evidence for it in the books.

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Offline deflated

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2017, 07:44:13 PM »
I think there's more to it than that. Lily was trying to act in intrinsically good ways, and she still got her personality substantially overwritten in a decade or so.

Lily's personality change may also be because of making her Choice and becoming more like her fae side; I'm not sure Dresdenverse nixie's are renowned for their strength of will and Lily never seemed like a particularly sharp tool prior to assuming the mantle.

Offline jonas

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2017, 07:47:30 PM »
  However does that mean you no longer have a soul?   Turning the argument on it's head, an evil person can repent and gain redemption, their "you-ness" has also totally changed.. So did they gain a soul?  They indeed had a "You-ness" before, but it was evil...   There are dark souls out there as well...
Actually there's a woj that states criminals of a certain caliber don't have a soul anymore. i.e. Serial killers and psychopaths. I'll look for that real quick, see if I can spot it.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2017, 07:52:12 PM »
Actually there's a woj that states criminals of a certain caliber don't have a soul anymore. i.e. Serial killers and psychopaths. I'll look for that real quick, see if I can spot it.
Which may just be another way of using the word soul.

It is strongly implied that corpstaker still had a soul and she was a mass murderer.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2017, 08:27:45 PM »
Which may just be another way of using the word soul
Huh?
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Offline peregrine

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2017, 01:32:44 AM »
Which may just be another way of using the word soul.

It is strongly implied that corpstaker still had a soul and she was a mass murderer.
I disagree.  She had a spirit.  Not a soul.  Assuming you're talking about her plan to reincarnate herself.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2017, 01:38:44 AM »
Lily's personality change may also be because of making her Choice and becoming more like her fae side; I'm not sure Dresdenverse nixie's are renowned for their strength of will and Lily never seemed like a particularly sharp tool prior to assuming the mantle.

I don't think she ever Chose fae. There was a WOJ that she was just mistaken at the end of SK in thinking she had a choice left at all - the clock was already ticking for her.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2017, 01:49:37 AM »
The white god was not that important in the past and he might not be that important in the future.

Please show in book information, or woj that says this.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2017, 03:31:01 AM »
Please show in book information, or woj that says this.
That is historical. There was a time people did not even know who he was. There is also Hades comment that souls used to go to him and not to other places. And those souls are still there, with him.
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Does Molly still have her soul?
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2017, 03:35:50 AM »
I disagree.  She had a spirit.  Not a soul.  Assuming you're talking about her plan to reincarnate herself.
Lea said she was like Harry. She would be alive again when she got a body. It was her, not some ghost. Corpstakers essence in Mab's terms, the soul of corpstakers being. Uriel got a certain satisfaction when she got carried away at the end. There is every indication that plan could have succeeded.

If evil people don't have a soul what is the point of the southbound train?



« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 03:57:39 AM by Arjan »
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