Author Topic: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?  (Read 9825 times)

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« on: September 17, 2017, 12:04:26 AM »
I have a more specific question I'm seeking an answer to.  So I'd like to get some opinions from the group mind.  This is about Mab personally killing a mortal rather than sending her Knight to do the job.  In Summer Knight we get this exchange between Bob and Harry:

"A Sidhe Knight is mortal," Bob said. "A champion of one of the Sidhe Courts. He gets powers in line with his Court, and he's the only one who is allowed to act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe."

"Meaning?"

"Meaning that if one of the Queens wants an outsider dead, her Knight is the trigger man."

I frowned. "Hang on a minute. You mean that the Queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"

"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to trade a baby for - "

"Off topic, Bob. Do I or don't I have to worry about getting killed this time around?"

"Of course you do," Bob said in a cheerful tone. "It just means that the Queen isn't allowed to actually, personally end your life. They could, however, trick you into walking into quicksand and watch you drown, turn you into a stag and set the hounds after you, bind you into an enchanted sleep for a few hundred years, that kind of thing."


Of course Bob doesn't know everything.  He thought the Summer Knight does the same job for Titania that the Winter Knight does for Mab.  So here is what I'm wondering about.  Mab was furious about her daughter being tainted by Nemesis.  Lea told Harry she went gonzo on the Red Court at Chicken Pizza because Lea owed them payback for Bianca giving her such a "treacherous gift."  However, I'm mostly concerned with Mab here.

So if Mab became aware that a pair of mortal wizards handled the item which tainted Maeve through Lea, how far would she be allowed to go to seek vengeance against them, assuming it could be proven that at least one of them was part of the plot to taint Lea?  While it was done in a stealthy manner, I would say that giving Lea the tainted Athame was a direct attack against the Winter Court and therefore it would be considered to be an act directly concerned with the Sidhe.  Do you think Mab would need to tell Harry to kill the people involved or could she could do the job herself, and not just indirectly by turning Cowl into a stag and setting the hounds after him; which now that I think about sounds like something Lea might do.

I'm assuming if Lea found out first she wouldn't need Harry or anyone else to seek vengeance for her, though Cowl might be a handful for Lea to deal with on her own.  Discus.   
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Offline forumghost

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2017, 01:35:47 AM »
She probably wouldn't need to tell Harry to do it, but she probably would anyway- and find herself somewhat nonplussed when Harry is, (for the first time ever) actually on board with her.

"Soo... you want me to kill Cowl?"
"Correct."
"Sure"
"..."
"What?"
"It is nothing my Knight."
"You're mad that you don't have to use whatever elaborate blackmail scheme you came up with to force me into this aren't you?"

Offline groinkick

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2017, 04:51:10 AM »
I have a more specific question I'm seeking an answer to.  So I'd like to get some opinions from the group mind.  This is about Mab personally killing a mortal rather than sending her Knight to do the job.  In Summer Knight we get this exchange between Bob and Harry:

"A Sidhe Knight is mortal," Bob said. "A champion of one of the Sidhe Courts. He gets powers in line with his Court, and he's the only one who is allowed to act in affairs not directly related to the Sidhe."

"Meaning?"

"Meaning that if one of the Queens wants an outsider dead, her Knight is the trigger man."

I frowned. "Hang on a minute. You mean that the Queens can't personally gun down anyone who isn't in their Court?"

"Not unless the target does something stupid like make an open-ended bargain without even trying to trade a baby for - "

"Off topic, Bob. Do I or don't I have to worry about getting killed this time around?"

"Of course you do," Bob said in a cheerful tone. "It just means that the Queen isn't allowed to actually, personally end your life. They could, however, trick you into walking into quicksand and watch you drown, turn you into a stag and set the hounds after you, bind you into an enchanted sleep for a few hundred years, that kind of thing."


Of course Bob doesn't know everything.  He thought the Summer Knight does the same job for Titania that the Winter Knight does for Mab.  So here is what I'm wondering about.  Mab was furious about her daughter being tainted by Nemesis.  Lea told Harry she went gonzo on the Red Court at Chicken Pizza because Lea owed them payback for Bianca giving her such a "treacherous gift."  However, I'm mostly concerned with Mab here.

So if Mab became aware that a pair of mortal wizards handled the item which tainted Maeve through Lea, how far would she be allowed to go to seek vengeance against them, assuming it could be proven that at least one of them was part of the plot to taint Lea?  While it was done in a stealthy manner, I would say that giving Lea the tainted Athame was a direct attack against the Winter Court and therefore it would be considered to be an act directly concerned with the Sidhe.  Do you think Mab would need to tell Harry to kill the people involved or could she could do the job herself, and not just indirectly by turning Cowl into a stag and setting the hounds after him; which now that I think about sounds like something Lea might do.

I'm assuming if Lea found out first she wouldn't need Harry or anyone else to seek vengeance for her, though Cowl might be a handful for Lea to deal with on her own.  Discus.   

Bob may have over stated what Mab could do too....  Maeve for example who is quite vindictive needed a mortal to screw up directly.  Notice she tried to trick Harry into sleeping with her but didn't do something to trick him into trying, like making herself look like a different woman.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

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Offline jonas

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2017, 05:16:59 AM »
Bob may have over stated what Mab could do too....  Maeve for example who is quite vindictive needed a mortal to screw up directly.  Notice she tried to trick Harry into sleeping with her but didn't do something to trick him into trying, like making herself look like a different woman.
That would be lying... ::)
And that rule as it's explained should only apply to people not affiliated with the courts or bargaining with them. Mab can't choose to kill a mortal, but if a mortal offers sufficient insult can she not take what is due? ???
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Offline groinkick

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2017, 05:22:00 AM »
That would be lying... ::)
As Jim has stated about Mab, she cannot lie but she can be mistaken.  Same can be said for Bob.

Quote
Mab can't choose to kill a mortal, but if a mortal offers sufficient insult can she not take what is due? ???
No....  For the same reason Molly cannot sleep with someone no matter how horny she is...  Mab is bound.  Haven't seen a single instance of Mab actually doing what Bob suggested she can do.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline jonas

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2017, 08:28:06 AM »
As Jim has stated about Mab, she cannot lie but she can be mistaken.  Same can be said for Bob.
That hass no linearity to the idea glamouring yourself as say, someone's spouse wouldn't be a lie so.. try to respond to which I said and not me?
Quote
No....  For the same reason Molly cannot sleep with someone no matter how horny she is...  Mab is bound.
uh... actually Aurora proves this by trying to kill Harry outright while being un8able to hurt mundane officer Murphy.
Quote
  Haven't seen a single instance of Mab actually doing what Bob suggested she can do.
So? What's that to if she CAN do something to if we've actively seen it, have we seen something against it?
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Offline groinkick

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2017, 07:28:48 PM »
actually Aurora proves this by trying to kill Harry outright while being un8able to hurt mundane officer Murphy.

Harry was an agent of Winter
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline DonBugen

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2017, 08:53:50 PM »
Quote
She probably wouldn't need to tell Harry to do it, but she probably would anyway- and find herself somewhat nonplussed when Harry is, (for the first time ever) actually on board with her.

Not once it's revealed that Cowl is really Harry's time-traveled alternate dimension-hopping grandson through Maggie and Simon, who is currently living in the body of Justin DuMorne after Kemmler body-swapped him.

That's the current theory, yes?

Offline peregrine

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2017, 09:29:28 PM »
One other note.  If Mab is going especially far for her, being unable to kill someone is going to be not much of a problem for her.  If anyone knows about fates worse than death, it's her.

Using Bob's original description, she can do things to a person that would then make them beg to have her kill them all on her own.  If she can turn them into something cervine, she can have them non-fatally have all their nerve endings grow through the skin, or whatever.

Offline Mira

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2017, 09:42:21 PM »


  Actually when you think about it, Mab will go quite far..   Consider Skin Game, it was all about revenge and pay back for Nic for what he did to Marcone, one of the signers of her Accords.  Now on one hand you can argue that Nic isn't a mortal, but that only holds true for as long as he holds a Coin and the Noose..  Take them away and he becomes an ordinary mortal.. He can be killed, it might take a Holy Sword to do it or perhaps strangulation with the noose he wears, but if he can be killed, he is a mortal..  So when you consider the elaborate years in the making plans that she and Marcone set up to get their revenge, yes, she will go quite far.

Offline jonas

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2017, 10:03:20 PM »
Harry was an agent of Winter
yea that's what I said, bargaining and meddling in court affairs. Contacting fairie directly, ect. as apposed to doing your lawful job without any such ties.
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Offline peregrine

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2017, 11:11:56 PM »
The other thing is questions of what counts as "involvement" with the court.

She can't just whack entirely unrelated people, but if you've done something that warrants her wanting revenge on you that badly, we're talking something more than just inhibiting her plans.  Which may include some other type of involvement.

Offline Snark Knight

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2017, 03:05:59 AM »
She probably wouldn't need to tell Harry to do it, but she probably would anyway- and find herself somewhat nonplussed when Harry is, (for the first time ever) actually on board with her.

I'm sure Harry would love to punch Cowl's ticket, but I'm not sure he's capable even with his gains since their last confrontation.

Offline groinkick

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2017, 03:31:27 AM »
I'm sure Harry would love to punch Cowl's ticket, but I'm not sure he's capable even with his gains since their last confrontation.

We don't know who Cowl is yet....  It could be that when Harry finds out, he may not want to punch his ticket.
Stole this from Reginald because it was so well put, and is true for me as well.

"I love this place. It was a beacon in the dark and I couldn't have made it through some of the most maddening years of my life without some great people here."  Thank you Griff and others who took up the torch.

Offline DonBugen

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Re: How far can Mab go to seek revenge on a mortal?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2017, 10:48:49 AM »
Or... he only finds out the identity after.

Remember, Jim doesn't enjoy torturing his characters, he enjoys torturing us.