Author Topic: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?  (Read 23236 times)

Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2017, 03:50:10 AM »
I feel like he would have said something about Justin teaching him that stuff.  And that's not something Justin would necessarily go in to before he has his hooks fully in them.  Even for isolated kids like them, raising the dead is a well known taboo.

I chalk it up to natural (or possibly unnatural) ability, either due to possessing a piece of Kemmler's spirit (not soul), or something to do with the complicated confluence of energies that went into creating becoming a Starborn.

  Justin didn't have Kemmler's book on the subject either as far as we know, it would also be unless to him unless he knew German.   Remember it was so to Harry until Lasciel's shadow translated for him.  Bob in full Kemmler/computer mode was a killer, I doubt that even Justin could control him, he nearly killed Harry.   Harry is a powerful wizard in his own right, so it isn't a huge leap to see him being able to raise the dead if he had the instruction  manual...   I doubt that it is all that hard to do by a competent powerful wizard, that is why one of the Laws of Magic forbids it

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2017, 04:03:31 AM »
Assuming most of those explanations were by way of Justin, there's a big difference between him explaining the basics of dark techniques and doing an actual demo. Actually raising a zombie would have tipped Harry and Elaine that he was evil, and risked them running away before he could spring the enthrallment plan (assuming Elaine wasn't in on that voluntarily).

I'm still on the fence about the central question, but I wouldn't rule out Justin as the source of it for that reason.
I don't doubt that Justin might have talked about it.  Eb being the only source seems unlikely, and Harry didn't have all that much interaction with other wizards until after DB.

But I don't see him having personal experience with it when he explicitly said he's never seen a zombie before.  I'd say it falls under general information. 

Assuming Justin fought zombies when he went up against Kemmler, he'd likely know something about them.  And since he was training Harry to be a fighter, he would have made sure he was informed about things he might face (the exception, of course, being any information about the White Council or other wizards)

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2017, 04:04:59 AM »
Quote from: Snark Knight
Assuming most of those explanations were by way of Justin, there's a big difference between him explaining the basics of dark techniques and doing an actual demo. Actually raising a zombie would have tipped Harry and Elaine that he was evil, and risked them running away before he could spring the enthrallment plan (assuming Elaine wasn't in on that voluntarily).
Griffyn ->  what he said, basically.  I didn't ask, "did Justin teach Harry necromancy"; it was "was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?"  I mean, if Harry and Elaine learned this information from Justin as part of their 'training', it would teach them a great deal about the mindset and mechanics of necromancy, all without Harry really being confident that he knew a thing about them.

Because, let's face it:  all of the information that Harry gives Butters is, essentially, correct.  Harry might believe that what he knows may very well be crap, but everything he says is on the nose.  So wherever he got that information from, it was a pretty good source.  They knew their stuff - and like I said before, they knew not only how a Necromancer does his works, but why it works the way it does and how to go about performing it.

I mean, he wouldn't be the first Harry to have an evil Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher lecturing on dark curses, after all. :D

Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2017, 04:15:18 AM »
Griffyn ->  what he said, basically.  I didn't ask, "did Justin teach Harry necromancy"; it was "was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?"  I mean, if Harry and Elaine learned this information from Justin as part of their 'training', it would teach them a great deal about the mindset and mechanics of necromancy, all without Harry really being confident that he knew a thing about them.

Because, let's face it:  all of the information that Harry gives Butters is, essentially, correct.  Harry might believe that what he knows may very well be crap, but everything he says is on the nose.  So wherever he got that information from, it was a pretty good source.  They knew their stuff - and like I said before, they knew not only how a Necromancer does his works, but why it works the way it does and how to go about performing it.

I mean, he wouldn't be the first Harry to have an evil Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher lecturing on dark curses, after all. :D
My bads then.  I was misunderstanding what you were saying.  I thought you were saying Justin was teaching him how to raise the dead.  But him giving Harry some info on such types of magic that he might encounter, and Eb expanding on that somewhat when Harry shared what he knew, makes sense.

  Justin didn't have Kemmler's book on the subject either as far as we know, it would also be unless to him unless he knew German.   Remember it was so to Harry until Lasciel's shadow translated for him.  Bob in full Kemmler/computer mode was a killer, I doubt that even Justin could control him, he nearly killed Harry.   Harry is a powerful wizard in his own right, so it isn't a huge leap to see him being able to raise the dead if he had the instruction  manual...   I doubt that it is all that hard to do by a competent powerful wizard, that is why one of the Laws of Magic forbids it
I think a contributing factor might have also been Evil Bob's mote of necro-energy, which Harry came into contact with very early on in the book.  Grevane smelled it on him in their first encounter. 

That necro-energy could go a ways towards helping Harry handle the necro-magic as well as he did.

Offline Second Aristh

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2017, 04:31:15 AM »
Isn't there some mention that Eb didn't really teach Harry much about the nuts and bolts of magic but more about using magic responsibly?

Regardless, I'm not so sure how much raising Sue points to Harry having an affinity for necromancy.  We already knew that Harry has lots of power to throw around with a weakness in control.  Thaumaturgy lets him play up his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  With that in mind, he's also got Lash in his head directing everything from behind his eyeballs.  It's not just Harry having an instruction manual; it's Harry having an instruction manual with an angel on his shoulder warning him whenever he's close to making a mistake.
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Offline Griffyn612

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2017, 05:51:34 AM »
Isn't there some mention that Eb didn't really teach Harry much about the nuts and bolts of magic but more about using magic responsibly?
General info about the magical community is what we're talking about.  Most of what Harry says is generic info likely told to everyone.  The only specific info is the drum beat part, which could have been explained to Harry by either Justin or Eb in as few words as he used with Butters.

From Justin, it's details on how to strike at an enemy.  From Eb, it's a deterrent that points out how messed up the process is, effectively breaking numerous laws at once.

Quote
Regardless, I'm not so sure how much raising Sue points to Harry having an affinity for necromancy.  We already knew that Harry has lots of power to throw around with a weakness in control.  Thaumaturgy lets him play up his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  With that in mind, he's also got Lash in his head directing everything from behind his eyeballs.  It's not just Harry having an instruction manual; it's Harry having an instruction manual with an angel on his shoulder warning him whenever he's close to making a mistake.
I think Evil Bob said he had a knack for necromancy, although how much of that was smoke up a potential recruit's exhaust port is debatable.

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2017, 06:13:21 AM »
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My bads then.  I was misunderstanding what you were saying.  I thought you were saying Justin was teaching him how to raise the dead.  But him giving Harry some info on such types of magic that he might encounter, and Eb expanding on that somewhat when Harry shared what he knew, makes sense.
Mm, but that's not what I'm stating, either.  Second Aristh's got a point on this; Ebenezer's teachings were mostly about using magic responsibly. 


Quote
One of the notable exceptions was Elementary Magic by Ebenezar McCoy. It was the first book most wizards ever handed an apprentice. It dealt with the nuts and bolts of moving energy around, and stressed the need for control and responsibility on behalf of the wizard.

Though now that I thought about it, Ebenezar hadn't handed me a copy of the book when he'd been teaching me. He hadn't even lectured me more than a couple of times. He told me what he expected, and then he lived it in front of me. Damned effective teaching method, to my way of thinking.
and
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Ebenezar had been a mentor to me at a time I'd badly needed it. He'd taught me just about everything I thought was important enough to be worth knowing. He had been unfailingly generous, patient, loyal, and kind to me.

But he had been lying to me the whole time, ignoring the principles he had been teaching me. On the one hand, he taught me about what it meant to be a wizard, about how a wizard's magic comes from his deepest beliefs, about how doing evil with magic was more than simply a crime- it was a mockery of what magic meant, a kind of sacrilege.

My main point was that Dresden's knowledge and intuition of the workings of necromancy, especially as he answers Butters, is far too in-depth, far too familiar to the workings of necromancy, to have been taught by someone other than a person who has used it.  And the only reason for going that in-depth in a forbidden, illegal art would be to prepare someone to know the basics and the groundwork, in order to actually do it.  Now, I don't trust Ebenezer any more than I can throw him, but I don't believe he would be sneaky-teaching Dresden this sort of stuff.  On the other hand, DuMorne certainly had plans for Harry.

You state that this might have just been taught to Harry in passing, just like Harry does with Butters.  I disagree.  Harry asks Butters to ask him any questions, completely opening the floor to him, and Butters' questions are all over the place.  Harry's not reciting answers given to him over a decade ago that he didn't have to use since; he's expounding on topics which Butters doesn't initially grasp.  He's demonstrating a functioning knowledge of the workings of necromancy.  And then later on, he actually does it.

Do you have any evidence to support your statement that this is all just general knowledge?  Something that would suggest that the wardens know why zombies respond to a drummer, the fact that it causes desire within them?  Any reason why apprentices would commonly be taught that it just doesn't make sense to try to resurrect squirrels and dogs, because the imprint of a life depends on its sentience and its age?  All of that seems like the kind of information that a practitioner would know, rather than an exterminator.  And as it's already been demonstrated, when a law is deemed illegal, the general workings of it are not widely known.  That's why none of the White Council knew much about mental defensive magic; that's why time travel is only theorized and guessed at, and why only a handful of people know that the Outer Gates are literal gates.

I mean, I'm honestly asking - is there evidence?  I haven't read Fistful of Warlocks yet, and that seems like the kind of book in which it would be clear what the Wardens did and did not understand about how necromancy functioned.

Furthermore, how do you defend Harry's immediate ability to know how to do a complex magical art that disciples of the great Kemmler had spent their entire lives on, yet could not pull off such a feat?  Even given a Fallen tutor and the fact of Halloween, the fact of the matter is that this is something completely brand new.  One doesn't learn advanced magics never attempted before just over one very good study session.  You could set me up for a day with a master carpenter explaining every single tool and technique he does in great detail, but I can guarantee you that the table I make the next day isn't going to be sold at Ikea.  I just don't understand the subject well enough.  That's why Lasciel improved Hannah's "power" by simply augmenting her rage and giving her access to Hellfire - these are quick and easy ways to amp the power, rather then spend the energy on tutelage.  Remember, Harry doesn't hold the coin, so the ressurection of Sue is all him.  I find it hard to believe that he could just pull this off with nothing but a good instructive lesson and a lot of gumption.

Offline Gman

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2017, 06:45:49 AM »
Harry seems to have a talent for Necromancy. Has done some other amazing things with little practice such as Harry is a really good summoner. He seems to be able to call up very powerful beings demons, Mab, The Erlking, Uriel and others really reliably and easily. Harry most likely got some training about necromancy from someone. It was probably Justin, Eb, or the Leasidhe or a combination of all. I do think it there is a good possibility that Justin had a bodyswap done with him. It may have been Kemmler escaping death and getting a new body with different skills. Like what happened to Warden Luccio. Justin may have used necromancy, Eb being the Blackstaff may have used necromancy and Lea being his Fairy Godmother probably knows a lot about most things.

Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2017, 07:35:31 AM »
Well, this not Harry's first dead rodeo. In GP, he had to deal with all of that crazed ghosts stuff for over a month. Maybe, he took the time to "bone up" on all things Necro.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2017, 11:37:53 AM »
Harry seems to have a talent for Necromancy. Has done some other amazing things with little practice such as Harry is a really good summoner. He seems to be able to call up very powerful beings demons, Mab, The Erlking, Uriel and others really reliably and easily. Harry most likely got some training about necromancy from someone. It was probably Justin, Eb, or the Leasidhe or a combination of all. I do think it there is a good possibility that Justin had a bodyswap done with him. It may have been Kemmler escaping death and getting a new body with different skills. Like what happened to Warden Luccio. Justin may have used necromancy, Eb being the Blackstaff may have used necromancy and Lea being his Fairy Godmother probably knows a lot about most things.

Yeah, and Molly seems to have a natural talent for veils, it wasn't something that she had to be taught or prepared for.. Of course she got even better once she learned more about them.  The same could be said for Harry, he has a talent for necromancy perhaps, he knows what it is, he'd learn about is as part of  his basic education as a wizard, Harry knows about a lot of things magically.   However that doesn't mean he was prepared to do all of them, or that he even knows how... So he can answer the basic questions about it when Butters asks him, even know a bit about zombies and how they are made.. That doesn't mean that way back when, Justin set down the groundwork so he'd make one someday.. For starters that would have made Harry potentially more powerful than himself, Justin wouldn't do that.  My understanding was he wanted an enforcer that he could control, that is what started this whole series off in the first place, Harry's resistance, rejection of, and finally killing Justin..  Most importantly, Harry couldn't do squat to raise a dead flea until he got a hold of the Book of Kemmler, Lasciel translated it, and he was desperate to stop Cowl..

Offline peregrine

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2017, 04:08:50 PM »
I don't think Harry couldn't raise a dead flea, so much as he had no reason to do so, and lots of reasons not to.

Also, let's not forget that things were very specifically arranged so as it'd be easier to do necromancy.  What Harry did was difficult, but not complicated.  I don't see raising Sue as being especially indicative of any particular talent.

It's like a guy who is huge, powerful, and hits like a train.  That doesn't indicate he's got any actual talent re: fighting, if all he does it send haymakers at his opponent that would never land.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2017, 04:54:31 PM »
Another thing to consider is this.  Jim has stated that wizards have a very curious nature when it comes to learning things.  Harry has had access to Bob for a long time.  It would make sense that he would have asked questions about that stuff to have a better understanding of it.

Also although Eb would not have taught Harry how to use the magic, by pounding the laws of magic into Harry it would make sense that he would also explain the fundamentals of that magic so Harry could recognize it if he saw it, and also so he could avoid ever doing it even if by accident.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2017, 08:27:27 PM »
Another thing to consider is this.  Jim has stated that wizards have a very curious nature when it comes to learning things.  Harry has had access to Bob for a long time.  It would make sense that he would have asked questions about that stuff to have a better understanding of it.

Also although Eb would not have taught Harry how to use the magic, by pounding the laws of magic into Harry it would make sense that he would also explain the fundamentals of that magic so Harry could recognize it if he saw it, and also so he could avoid ever doing it even if by accident.

I agree, gaining the knowledge of it wouldn't be all that difficult, but violating the Law is another matter..  Harry has to be very careful and look at the angles and the loop holes, like summoning Toot wasn't exactly the same thing as subjugating him to his will which would have gotten him the chop, raising Sue wasn't exactly the same as creating a human zombie.. Same magic and power needed but a loophole in the law..

Offline Rasins

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2017, 03:20:19 PM »
Another thing you have to remember is that He had the shadow of a fallen angel coaching him inside his head. 
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Offline Mira

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Re: Was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2017, 09:25:34 PM »
Another thing you have to remember is that He had the shadow of a fallen angel coaching him inside his head.

Oh I didn't, Harry couldn't have raised Sue if Lasciel hadn't translated Kemmler's Word for him, no matter how much raw talent he has.