Denarian Dresden

[Snark Knight]

Never saw that one but I remember one about the white god as a mantle and for all we know it had changed hands already.
And another one about how they express themselves on earth that changes even if they themselves don't. The drift in belief about the angels and the white god is a historical fact so I assume it is so in the dresdenverse as well.

The one about angels being absolute was recent. I can't place the source right now - it was older than DragonCon, but I think it was one of the Q&A's this year or late last.

Would you happen to remember where the TWG as a mantle that may have changed hands was from? I had some vague memories of a comment like TWG is the eternal creator of the universe, but wasn't always. I've been trying to find that one again for a while to confirm what exactly was said, but I haven't been able to find it. Somebody else remembering something along those general lines makes me wonder if maybe the Fall was precipitated by the creator mantle changing hands and some of the angels resenting the change in management.

[Arjan]

The one about angels being absolute was recent. I can't place the source right now - it was older than DragonCon, but I think it was one of the Q&A's this year or late last.

Would you happen to remember where the TWG as a mantle that may have changed hands was from? I had some vague memories of a comment like TWG is the eternal creator of the universe, but wasn't always. I've been trying to find that one again for a while to confirm what exactly was said, but I haven't been able to find it. Somebody else remembering something along those general lines makes me wonder if maybe the Fall was precipitated by the creator mantle changing hands and some of the angels resenting the change in management.

All myth is true even if it was not true in the past and it is still not true somewhere else. I remember vaguely something about regional differences as well. Something about Harry having a lot to do with angels because he lives in a country with a lot of Christians.

Imthink christian exceptionalism is only true in the dresdenverse if you are a christian

[jonas]

The one about angels being absolute was recent. I can't place the source right now - it was older than DragonCon, but I think it was one of the Q&A's this year or late last.

Would you happen to remember where the TWG as a mantle that may have changed hands was from? I had some vague memories of a comment like TWG is the eternal creator of the universe, but wasn't always. I've been trying to find that one again for a while to confirm what exactly was said, but I haven't been able to find it. Somebody else remembering something along those general lines makes me wonder if maybe the Fall was precipitated by the creator mantle changing hands and some of the angels resenting the change in management.

You find that one can you give a link? I personally agree with it but the only corroborating evidence I know of is that MS, who opposite MW is basically the source of creation, is the 2nd one, the first having at one time abdicated. I see this as TWG creator post being abandoned for life as TWC, ability to choose and change. TWG in a human form is a lot of why I supposite that Lucifer, as his polarity, probably did the same.
*Although looking at Uriel I've always seen a younger TWC so maybe he ended up there and TWG became part of a larger identity?(TWG seems more role based on human belief than angel absolute identity)

[TheCuriousFan]

Where does te mantle do those things for arry? I've not seen the Mantle actually heal anything nor indication that it makes him more durable than usual, least any more so than a guy on pcp.

“Petulance does not become the Winter Knight,” Mab said. She turned to the elevator doors, which had an enormous dent in them the same shape as a wizard’s noggin. They swept open with a groan of protesting metal. “Do this for me, and I shall ensure the safe removal of the parasite when the task is completed.”

For most people, your head would break before a an elevator door got dented like that, afaict he didn't even get a concussion.

“I’ll just put a clean shirt over them,” I said. “Look, it isn’t a big deal. Little marks like that are going to be gone in a day or two.”
“Little . . . Winter Knight stuff?”

For most people, deep scratches from claws take a fair bit longer than a day or two to heal, it's not super healing but it's noticeably faster than normal.

[Snark Knight]

You find that one can you give a link?

I will if I can, but I'm not optimistic. I looked for that one for almost an hour last time the topic came up and couldn't find it, and I don't have anywhere near that much free time for the next few weeks.

[groinkick]

Pissed off Harry if he had taken up a Coin.

[jonas]

For most people, your head would break before a an elevator door got dented like that, afaict he didn't even get a concussion.
For most people, deep scratches from claws take a fair bit longer than a day or two to heal, it's not super healing but it's noticeably faster than normal.

Huh, I probably dismissed the elevator thing offhand between what the Mantle did when ace took a bat to his wigglers and the fact he just got a groovy head ache suppressing magical earring, I assume he just didn't feel concussed. The healing thing is interesting though, definitely not his usual wizardly healing factor there.

[isoycrazy]

I am reminded of a line from the comics of the cartoon Gargoyles, from the mid 1990s.  In it, a reawakened King Arthur notes that many myths are based in fact, but few myths are accurate.

If we take the Dresden-Bible as a long accounting of myths, a long story translated and mistranslated over centuries, not everything should be taken as absolutely correct.    What Pharaoh was doing and what was done to him is all speculation.  Add in, if the Greek Gods exist, dollars to donuts so did the Egyptian Gods of that time.  We just don't know their plot in what Pharaoh did.

As for which path was the least evil, I still favor Mab in that she is a controlled person. She doesn't like waste and stupidity.  The killing of many uninvolved brings unwanted attention.  Several of her former Knights were serial killers.  Some of those kills could have been by the Knight's own choosing, and their stupidity brought in the mortal police who dispatched him.

Nicodemus encourages stupidity, he encourages people to believe he is a savior while he maims them and has his daughter rip out their tongues.  He keeps them locked up, ignorant, frightened and alone.  And he's been doing it for thousands of years.

[Ulfgeir]

The one about angels being absolute was recent. I can't place the source right now - it was older than DragonCon, but I think it was one of the Q&A's this year or late last.

Would you happen to remember where the TWG as a mantle that may have changed hands was from? I had some vague memories of a comment like TWG is the eternal creator of the universe, but wasn't always. I've been trying to find that one again for a while to confirm what exactly was said, but I haven't been able to find it. Somebody else remembering something along those general lines makes me wonder if maybe the Fall was precipitated by the creator mantle changing hands and some of the angels resenting the change in management.

I think I vaguely recall the WoJ you refer to and it was someting to the effect that TWG could be seen as a mantle, and that we woould not know if said being were the original one holding that position. Where is  Serack when we need him for a proper quote?

/ULfgeir

[Arjan]

She let out a cold little laugh. "Such arrogance. Do you think you could change the eternal, mortal? I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it. You are nothing, mortal. You are a flickering spark. You will be here, and be gone, and in the aeons that come after, when your very kind have dwindled and perished, you will be but one of uncounted legions of those whom I have seduced and destroyed." Her eyes narrowed. "You. Cannot. Change. Me."

You do not have to bother with what Nicodemus says about his goals or what a 2000 years brainwashed Deirdre says about their goals. The one really in charge is the fallen whatever Nicodemus might think. Their real goals, whatever they say, are the goals of the fallen. The rest is lure for Nicodemus, even if it did not start that way.

So about Nicodemus and their ilk. Their goals are evil, their methods are evil and they are absolutely not interested in reducing the collateral damage. They are absolutely on topin the list of evil beings Harry met. Maybe just below shagnasty or so. Mab is not even close. She has a benign purpose and a complete summer court to keep her in line. She is bound to rules that keep her somewhat in line so she does not come close.

[maGoh12]

I'm well aware that it's in the Bible of this world, maGoh12; I was simply trying to point out that it might be one of the things that are different between TWG of the Dresden Files and the Christian God that real life people believe in.  That's why I referred to the "Dresden Bible" - the Bible within the Dresdenverse.

There's already some evidence that these things don't match up.  Thomas paraphrases it in Blood Rites:That bolded part is nowhere within the actual Bible; it talks about prophecies and tongues and wisdom ceasing, but not about apocalypse.  So either the Dresdenverse's Bible has a reference to Empty Night right in one of its most poetic passages, or Thomas somehow mis-remembered something that his father drilled into all of their children.

And my plain point was that compromising mortal choice just is completely opposite of what TWG in the Dresden Files stands for.  So either the Bibles are different, or it's like Hades and Persephone, in which it's all just a bunch of propoganda.  Arguments against TWG's "hardening of Pharaoh's heart" are out of character and just don't hold weight in that reality; they only serve if you're trying to poke at real-world religion.  Which is, of course, against the rules.

I misinterpreted, in a rather dumb fashion, what you meant when you said that was an area the Dresden-Bible is different from our Bible. My apologies.

In my defense, I did clearly started that I was only talking about Dresden-verse theology, not real world, with that comment. I wouldn't ever insult Christianity, and I try really hard to never insult other religions either.

You are correct, affecting free will would be highly out of character for TWG as we know him in the Dresden Files.

[Con]

First on the TWG mantle topic. I study Ancient History. The god Yahweh started out as a head of a pantheon of gods that allowed temple prostitution and baby sacrifices. Overtime Yahweh became such a central figure that he became The God with other members of the Pantheon being relegated to Archangels and lower tier Angels. Down to the descriptions of Seraphim being identical to minor deities previously.

If we are to take this chronology of events being similar in the Dresdenverse, than at one point TWG was just as an evil son of a bitch as Kulkulan.

Or conversely TWG as we know it which has it's origins in pre-Hindi sense of a Supreme Being, came from the East overthrew Yahweh and took his place. Which is close to the actual truth. Myths of a more benevolent supreme being with different tiers of lesser deities, was better than all the cruel gods of the Middle East. They came from India through trade, and were particularly appealing to the Slaves of Egypt, who did have trade with India at the time. Even our idea of a soul comes from India. Other religions of the time had the belief you were a Shade of yourself after death.

On the subject of Mab.

I think a lot of people are underestimating her cruelty. No one can inflict the sort of suffering Mab inflicted on Lloyd Slate unless they enjoy doing so, no matter how balanced it was in response to betrayal. We've also seen through the facade that she's as cold and calculated as she tries to present herself several times. Finally even if she herself isn't directly ordering it, she still rules a Queendom of viscious bloodthirsty killers 40 thousand of theme. You think among those 40 thousand you couldn't find thirty to match the Denarians, how bout sixty... how about all 40 thousand of them.

Plus all these arguments that Mab keeps her bargains. She only does so barely so long as it suits her than finds away to loophole out of them. Dresden was never once capable before becoming Winter Knight at beating Mab at... deals, legality, outwitting her. She owned his ass at every turn.

Dresden had managed to defeat Nicodemus twice, and change the essence of a Shadow. THat is far more experience outmaneuvering Nicky and the Heads then Harry had at outwitting Mab.

[Arjan]

The difference is that  Every time we learn to understand Mab a little bit better we get a better understanding why she is doing what she does and why it is important.

Every time we learn to understand Nicodemus and the denarians better we better understand that the best thing Nicodemus can do is drop the coin and get out of it.

[Mira]

The difference is that  Every time we learn to understand Mab a little bit better we get a better understanding why she is doing what she does and why it is important.

Every time we learn to understand Nicodemus and the denarians better we better understand that the best thing Nicodemus can do is drop the coin and get out of it.

Then rapidly turn to dust...  He is a couple of thousand years old after all.

[Arjan]

Then rapidly turn to dust...  He is a couple of thousand years old after all.

Probably not that much older than Cassius, time enough to be saved if the dresdenverse follows Christian mythology.