Denarian Dresden

[Mira]

Probably not that much older than Cassius, time enough to be saved if the dresdenverse follows Christian mythology.

  I am not so sure that that is true, we do know that Nic has been around from the beginning, but don't remember much evidence that shows that to be true for Cassius.  Who knows, just giving up coin and noose as a sacrifice to save another might be enough..

[jonas]

  I am not so sure that that is true, we do know that Nic has been around from the beginning, but don't remember much evidence that shows that to be true for Cassius.  Who knows, just giving up coin and noose as a sacrifice to save another might be enough..

Really can't see anyone Nic would ever save though.

[isoycrazy]

Really can't see anyone Nic would ever save though.

The only person I can think of, he just killed at Hades' doorstep.

[Arjan]

Really can't see anyone Nic would ever save though.

It is not about anyone else saved by Nic but his own soul. In the end Nicodemus is a victim of the fallen. He is deceived and led into his doom by Anduriel and Anduriel made him kill his daughter to trap him even more. I do not think there is a reasonable chance of saving him now but still the knights try, it is what they do.

According to christian lore there is only one thing he has to do to save himself whatever crime he has done in the past. Jim may not follow christian lore litterally here but the fact that Michael still tries indicates that it is at least theoretically still possible.

Think Faust and the monk here:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheMonk

It is at the centre of what they do, it is in the heart of their nature. The fallen doom souls, it is what they do. It is their story.

[Con]

hmm I wonder if thats the purpose of the mass killings by the Denarians. So that people in strife and crisis commit evil acts to doom their souls, so that they're sent to Hell where Lucifer and other demons get a power boost.

[jonas]

hmm I wonder if thats the purpose of the mass killings by the Denarians. So that people in strife and crisis commit evil acts to doom their souls, so that they're sent to Hell where Lucifer and other demons get a power boost.

Sorta, it gives bad people a place they genuinely believe they'll go.

[Con]

...What?

I'm talking about the magical, spiritual, emotional, mental and consciousness of a soul being a powerful tool and fuel source for Hell and demons.

Islamic theology and pholosophy believes Lucifer mad a deal with God that he would get ten thousand years to prove humans deserve to go to hell which would be proven by the number of people who go to hell.

Judaism believe Sammael/Lucifer was the Angel of Death and punishes evil doers in the after life or delivers them to heaven. Earliest form of the Reaper myth along with Charon. It was him in the bible that slayed the first born of Egypt.

I'm wondering if in Dresden verse Lucifer is gathering as many condemned souls as he can for some sort of purpose.

[jonas]

...What?

I'm talking about the magical, spiritual, emotional, mental and consciousness of a soul being a powerful tool and fuel source for Hell and demons.

Islamic theology and pholosophy believes Lucifer mad a deal with God that he would get ten thousand years to prove humans deserve to go to hell which would be proven by the number of people who go to hell.

Judaism believe Sammael/Lucifer was the Angel of Death and punishes evil doers in the after life or delivers them to heaven. Earliest form of the Reaper myth along with Charon. It was him in the bible that slayed the first born of Egypt.

I'm wondering if in Dresden verse Lucifer is gathering as many condemned souls as he can for some sort of purpose.

And i'm theorizing that purpose is to give a cognitive definition to 'evil' people, an after life for the 'damned'. Most afterlife is to catch things that would otherwise go to nonexistence, empowering the enemy.
The Denarians themselves balance out the positive forces of freedom, literally 10 to 1, so it stays dispersed. Notice the energy and state of mind Nic wants in DM is apocalyptic? They do what the Necronomicon does to the creature within, only with apocalyptic forces. Prevent one huge build up... Which Dresden keeps thwarting a bit too successfully I might add.
*He was stealing pestilences energy in DM and feeding it to andurial by proxy, it's his schedule in the stars, he knows when their gonna manifest the zenith of their strength via conjunction...

[Kindler]

Probably not that much older than Cassius, time enough to be saved if the dresdenverse follows Christian mythology.

None of them can be older than about 2,000 years (give or take a few decades), yet we saw one of them collapse into dust pretty much immediately after the aquarium fight in Small Favor. It could be that death accelerated the process, or that the Noose would halt or slow it for Nicodemus. Cassius started aging rapidly, but managed to make it a few years, though I didn't get the feeling that he was that old.

I think the Noose might be a difference maker. He didn't pull a Holy Grail scene from the end of Last Crusade and turn into a desiccated husk when he gave up the coin briefly in Skin Game—but that also could have been a clue that he wasn't really setting it aside.

[Con]

WOJ is that the silver Denarius are mostly Augustan with some Tiberius Denarius. If we take the Calender as literal truth to the year, they would technically only just now have roughly passed 2000 years

[Rasins]

None of them can be older than about 2,000 years (give or take a few decades), yet we saw one of them collapse into dust pretty much immediately after the aquarium fight in Small Favor. It could be that death accelerated the process, or that the Noose would halt or slow it for Nicodemus. Cassius started aging rapidly, but managed to make it a few years, though I didn't get the feeling that he was that old.

I think the Noose might be a difference maker. He didn't pull a Holy Grail scene from the end of Last Crusade and turn into a desiccated husk when he gave up the coin briefly in Skin Game—but that also could have been a clue that he wasn't really setting it aside.

I took Nick's anti-aging in SK as he was just not away from the coin long enough for it to start to catch up with him.  Even Cassius didn't immediately get old when Harry broke his arms and legs.

As to how old Cassius is ... I thought he came from Egypt and that it had been quite a while.  Centuries at least.  I'll have to look into that one.

[SerScot]

Anubissama,

Honestly, the whole argument that Mab is the lesser evil doesn't really make sense to me. Let's compare the two:

Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive

Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organisation dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher

If you are looking for the best power boost, with the highest chance of retaining yourself, and best odds of surviving and leaving it behind, Denari win out against Mab.

I disagree.  Harry was already being changed by the shadow of Lashiel.  If he took up the coin the real Lashiel would have been infinintly worse for him.  No, Harry made the right call.  Mab while dark and dangerous is not "Evil".  She is willing to do horrible things to facilitate her goal of defending the Outer Gates.  That is not the same thing as being "Evil^TM".

[Con]

I think Evil actions are in the actions themselves not in an ends justif the means scenario, where oh all of the horrible torture and murder Mab does is because she fights Outsiders. That's the exact same argument Nicodemus uses.

How is one evil less evil than the other?

Judge a person by their actions first, their friends second and their enemies third. Mab's actions are torture and murder. Her friends/subjects are torturers and murders. Her enemies in addition to Outsiders include the much more benevolent Summer Court (not saying they're holey good, but certainly better than Winter).

Why is Mab anymore "Good type of Evil" than Nicodemus.

People's main argument is that Lasciel is less predictable than Mab. Personally I disagree. Harry already motivated and moved one supposedly immutable being the Shadow who wasn't supposed to have any choice, why not another?

I'm not saying he would have necessarily succeeded but I think he'd have a better shot with Lasciel then Mab. Mainly because Harry has Uriel on one shoulder who would be a much more direct counter point to Lasciel than Mab.

[Arjan]

I think Evil actions are in the actions themselves not in an ends justif the means scenario, where oh all of the horrible torture and murder Mab does is because she fights Outsiders. That's the exact same argument Nicodemus uses.

How is one evil less evil than the other?

Judge a person by their actions first, their friends second and their enemies third. Mab's actions are torture and murder. Her friends/subjects are torturers and murders. Her enemies in addition to Outsiders include the much more benevolent Summer Court (not saying they're holey good, but certainly better than Winter).

Why is Mab anymore "Good type of Evil" than Nicodemus.

People's main argument is that Lasciel is less predictable than Mab. Personally I disagree. Harry already motivated and moved one supposedly immutable being the Shadow who wasn't supposed to have any choice, why not another?

I'm not saying he would have necessarily succeeded but I think he'd have a better shot with Lasciel then Mab. Mainly because Harry has Uriel on one shoulder who would be a much more direct counter point to Lasciel than Mab.

The main argument is Mab's purpose. Mab's purpose is to defend reality. She is compared with a body's immune system. Nicodemus is someone who has to be saved from the fallen who are corrupting, guiding and after so many years just controlling him. His purpose is that of the fallen and the fallen are the antithesis of the swords in this case.

Nicodemus is at least as evil as Michael is good. That should be answer enough but on top of that Nicodemus is actively interested in harming humans, Mab is not and most of her subjects are not really interested in humans either. Humans are further shielded by a lot of rules and the summer court. She is part of a structure.

[Con]

I think it's a stretch to say most of Mab's subjects aren't interested in humans, as most of the nastier ones seem to feed on human suffering and death. Summer and Winter are as much a balance to each other as Denarians and Knights of the Cross.