Denarian Dresden

[DonBugen]

The party about God hardening Pharaoh's heart is straight out of the real Bible. Exodus 7:3-4 says He would do it. Exodus 9:12 says he did it. Strictly in the context of the Dresdenverse, and not speaking about Christian theology in the real world at all, it is kind of a dick move.

I'm well aware that it's in the Bible of this world, maGoh12; I was simply trying to point out that it might be one of the things that are different between TWG of the Dresden Files and the Christian God that real life people believe in.  That's why I referred to the "Dresden Bible" - the Bible within the Dresdenverse.

There's already some evidence that these things don't match up.  Thomas paraphrases it in Blood Rites:

"You can have everything in the world, but if you don't have love, none of it means crap," he said promptly. "Love is patient. Love is kind. Love always forgives, trusts, supports, and endures. Love never fails. When every star in the heavens grows cold, and when silence lies once more on the face of the deep, three things will endure: faith, hope, and love."

That bolded part is nowhere within the actual Bible; it talks about prophecies and tongues and wisdom ceasing, but not about apocalypse.  So either the Dresdenverse's Bible has a reference to Empty Night right in one of its most poetic passages, or Thomas somehow mis-remembered something that his father drilled into all of their children.

And my plain point was that compromising mortal choice just is completely opposite of what TWG in the Dresden Files stands for.  So either the Bibles are different, or it's like Hades and Persephone, in which it's all just a bunch of propoganda.  Arguments against TWG's "hardening of Pharaoh's heart" are out of character and just don't hold weight in that reality; they only serve if you're trying to poke at real-world religion.  Which is, of course, against the rules.

[Arjan]

A clear difference in tone is the apocalypse. It looks like the good guys in the Dresden verse do want to stop it from happening. Nicodemus however wants it.  In real life Christianity it is, for some types of Christians at least, something to look forward to.

It looks like we have some anti-theists here, an understandable position because atheism is somewhat difficult in the Dresden verse but the same problems with good and evil still apply.

(click to show/hide)

The solution to the problem of evil is simple though. God did not create men in his own image, He created cat in his own image. Reflect on this, it explains all.

The problem however is that by telling how evil the white god is you only strengthen his foothold on this earth!

Luckily there is a plan. There is even a vast conspiracy supporting anti-theism in the Dresden verse!

• Deny the existence of magic and all supernatural entities.
• If they are too well entrenched just tell they don't interfere anyway, free will is a good excuse.
• Destroy all knowledge of magic and all supernatural entities. Do not pass that knowledge to your children.
• Do not give them your faith.

It seems to work. There is a lot less supernatural stuff going on than say 1000 years ago. But there is still a lot to do. The venatori might contact you.

[Snark Knight]

Punishing the father by killing his son is morally wrong whatever the father did but I do not think the Uriel who killed the firstborn is the same as the Uriel who walks around now just like the Odin who demanded human sacrifices is not the same one as he who talked with Harry.
They change because the stories about them change.

Nope - at least, as far as Uriel's case.  By WOJ, the reason angels are not susceptible to Nemesis is that their nature is absolute. They're not subject to change such as that based on drift in belief the way pagan gods and 'worshipped' Fae (i.e. those in a position like Kringle who mortals believe in, even if not explicitly religious figures).

And I fully admit if it ever turns out that Nicodemus is doing this just to get personal power I'll admit he is E evil, but from all the hints we have so far it seems more than likely that Nicodemus has an end game goal that fights the Outsiders. Which we also use to justify all that Mab does, so again they are at worst equal.

Oh, power is definitely a means to an end for Nic as well. But the difference between him and Mab is that keeping the Outsiders Out is Mab's overall purpose. I'm confident Nic shares that as an objective, but it's not like if someone were able to use a WMD to kill everything beyond the Gates, does anyone really think he's just going to say "mission accomplished" and retire to take up gardening? He's still going to have his 'saint of hell' game plan to act out.

[Anubissama]

Oh, power is definitely a means to an end for Nic as well. But the difference between him and Mab is that keeping the Outsiders Out is Mab's overall purpose. I'm confident Nic shares that as an objective, but it's not like if someone were able to use a WMD to kill everything beyond the Gates, does anyone really think he's just going to say "mission accomplished" and retire to take up gardening? He's still going to have his 'saint of hell' game plan to act out.

Well no, but that goes back to the problem I already mentioned. We only know the victor's version of events. Maybe the Fallen are a bunch of ungrateful brats who spit in the face of a loving father, or maybe they are a group of freedom fighters who fought bravely against a tyrannical ruler to free their brothers and grant them free will and a right to choose their lives and destiny.

Both versions are possible. And if being a TWG loyal Angel means no freedom, no will of your own, no self-agency. Who can blame them for staging a rebellion? Maybe Nic wants to become a Saint of Hell and topple TWG because it is the better option than the totalitarian regime of Heaven we have now.

[wardenferry419]

Based on their actions within the text, I am leaning towards ungrateful brats over freedom fighters. In reality, those that think they can do a better job than those in charge often do not know what the job requires. I consider Heaven as not a regime but a reward for making the right choices.

[Arjan]

Nope - at least, as far as Uriel's case.  By WOJ, the reason angels are not susceptible to Nemesis is that their nature is absolute. They're not subject to change such as that based on drift in belief the way pagan gods and 'worshipped' Fae (i.e. those in a position like Kringle who mortals believe in, even if not explicitly religious figures).

Never saw that one but I remember one about the white god as a mantle and for all we know it had changed hands already.

And another one about how they express themselves on earth that changes even if they themselves don't. The drift in belief about the angels and the white god is a historical fact so I assume it is so in the dresdenverse as well.

[dspringer1]

Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive

You get a considerable degree of winter power, immunities and weaknesses, tied to the position.  You do get temptation, but it is impersonal as opposed to tailored to your psychology.  Also, Dresden bargained for aid.   That was the full aid of the lea, probably secured the aid of Odin (or at least not blocked the aid of Odin) plus some clear implications that he got additional winter power during the battle with the Red court (ie - mid battle boosts in strength).    And you get a iron clad bargain which you can rely upon, but not necessarily trust.   

Finally, the white council would accept the winter knight, but not a denarian. 

Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organization dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher

Yes and no.   
*  Harry Already had soulfire from Uriel.  If he accepted the coin, then he would have lose that to get hellfire. Maybe a net gain in destruction, but not really clear especially as soulfire is particularly effective vs vampires.   
*  You can argue that he would gain the aid of Nik and other denarians in the battle - but lose the aid of the holy knights and Lea.  Again, not sure that is a net gain.   
*  Going full Denarian will certainly give him more physical power, ability to recover from injuries.   But it is not clear that this power would be substantially stronger than the winter knight powers without ceding control completely to a Fallen.   
*  And the temptation aspects of the coin would be FAR more dangerous than anything the winter mantle provides.   The coin's temptation would be directed by an intelligence that specializes in manipulation, has been studying people for tens of thousands of years.  Further more, relying on the coin gives the coin more power over the host.   The only way to prevent this is to become something that the coin supports - another Nik. As that is completely contrary to Dresden's goals, I cannot see this as an acceptable scenario.    Also keep in mind that Harry had already freed himself once from the coin.  Lashiel would not be forgiving and would redouble her efforts.  And unlike the shadow of lash, Dresden cannot change Lashiel's nature.   
*  The coin would be an active threat to Harry's daughter and friends.  It would want to corrupt them too - while Mab at the end of the day does not care about Harry's acquaintances unless they interfere with her goals. 
*  Your argument obviously implied that Harry could just give up the coin after the battle was over --- after all he already showed he can do it.   But I suspect that the Fallen are well aware of this and would take steps to prevent it -- or withhold the aid Harry would need form other Fallen.  At the very least, Harry would have to swear by his magic to not do so for some "reasonable" time like 3 years.  By that time, he would be lost.   

[dspringer1]

Here is a question - will the Dark Harry in mirror mirror be a true denarian or a half or powered by something else

I am pretty sure myself that the coin is the next obvious power source for a dark harry.  But I am not sure if this Dark Harry accepted the coin fully (ie - Lashiel) as opposed to coming to a working relationship with Lash that allowed him a lot of the benefits without taking up the coin. 

This might be the way to get Lash back into the story line even though Lash in the primary arc has died/moved on/been transformed.

[Kindler]

Consider that Maggie would be a new point of leverage for the Denarians, including Lasciel. Imagine what a Fallen temptress could do with that knowledge if she's got control over him. Maggie could have ended up twisted in all sorts of unfortunate and deplorable ways. She still could, but I'd judge that the odds are lower with the Winter Knight mantle, which is guided by base instinct (like "Protect the offspring.") He might not set the best example of stability, but, at the very least, he'll want to keep Maggie as far away from Winter as possible, and there's a lower chance of her following in his exact footsteps.

It's also doubtful that his memory gambit with his suicide would have worked with a Coin in his possession and another entity in his head—though I guess he might not have had a Fallen convincing him to do it in the first place if he was taking up a coin, so that might be moot. In fact, Molly would not have gone off the deep end, and with Harry still around, Lea wouldn't have shaped her to be the Winter Lady, which might be the worst thing about it, assuming Maeve still offs Lily.

And what about Corpsetaker? If he wasn't a ghost (or wraith or whatever you want to call it), it's pretty doubtful he would've learned about the Darkhallow in time.

Hmm. Mirror, Mirror might be more fun than I was thinking.

[DonBugen]

Anubissama, I hear you, I really do.  But there’s a few things that I want to mention.

 

1.        Fighting the outsiders and wanting them out of our reality isn’t really a morally upright or morally evil thing; it’s just simply survival.  Per Word of Jim (and I don’t have the exact reference) this is a battle in which both God and Satan would be on the same side.  Pretty much, if you live in the Dresdenverse, and you know about the Outsiders, and you’re not so delusional as to think that you can control *them*, you’re against them.

2.       Jim’s stated in one of his talks on writing that the key to making a really good villain is to remember that in his mind, he’s the hero of his own story.  This is something that people often forget:  most people, regardless of how upright or twisted they are, generally live their lives doing what they feel is right in their own eyes.  Few people wake up and just think, “You know what?  I’m going to be a complete monster today.”

To the Fallen, I’m pretty sure it did seem like some sort of act of liberation against a brutal tyrant.  And that the Knights and those who serve TWG are nothing more than a vicious military police focused on bringing them to knee in submission.  That does not mean that this position is correct, but it means that they've justified their actions and motives.  An emotional abuser may lie and manipulate and stalk not because they hate the person, but because they love the person and can't live without them. A freedom fighter may strike a blow against the heart of the Empire that's choking out their way of life, 100% certain that they're doing the right thing, and we remember them as terrorists who hijacked a plane full of innocent civilians to kill thousands more.  Feeling that you're in the right does not make you objectively good.  Which brings me to my third and final point

3.       The end rarely justifies the means.  One of the prevailing themes of the Dresden Files is that there’s always a way out; always a choice to be made in which one can still save the day without turning into a monster.  If you’ve gone down the left-hand path to the point in which you’re slaughtering innocents without a second thought, it’s long past time to consider that possibly you’re not the hero that you thought that you were.  That’s so central to Harry’s struggle against his internal darkness, and therefore central to the Dresden Files itself, that I honestly feel that if you disagree with that you’re probably reading the wrong book.

Good intentions are nice and all, but it’s what a person does that really indicates who they are.  You can fairly judge the type of men that the Knights are from the work that they do.  And, I believe, you can fairly judge Mab and Nicodemus based off of that as well.

Long story short:  If Nicodemus’ solution to stopping the Outsiders from destroying the world is to turn it into a nightmarish hellscape full of death, ruin, and destruction, then I’m not sure that he really saved the world from destruction at all.

[Mira]

2.       Jim’s stated in one of his talks on writing that the key to making a really good villain is to remember that in his mind, he’s the hero of his own story.  This is something that people often forget:  most people, regardless of how upright or twisted they are, generally live their lives doing what they feel is right in their own eyes.  Few people wake up and just think, “You know what?  I’m going to be a complete monster today.”

This fits Nic to a tee...  Harry on the other hand, not so much, even when he wins the day he rarely thinks of himself as a hero.  That doesn't mean that he doesn't have a good opinion of himself, at least as far as his will is concerned.   He also has a strong sense of right and wrong though he can be wrong and sometimes his vision is muddled..

[KurtinStGeorge]

Anubissama, I hear you, I really do.  But there’s a few things that I want to mention.

 

1.        Fighting the outsiders and wanting them out of our reality isn’t really a morally upright or morally evil thing; it’s just simply survival.  Per Word of Jim (and I don’t have the exact reference) this is a battle in which both God and Satan would be on the same side.  Pretty much, if you live in the Dresdenverse, and you know about the Outsiders, and you’re not so delusional as to think that you can control *them*, you’re against them.

2.       Jim’s stated in one of his talks on writing that the key to making a really good villain is to remember that in his mind, he’s the hero of his own story.  This is something that people often forget:  most people, regardless of how upright or twisted they are, generally live their lives doing what they feel is right in their own eyes.  Few people wake up and just think, “You know what?  I’m going to be a complete monster today.”

To the Fallen, I’m pretty sure it did seem like some sort of act of liberation against a brutal tyrant.  And that the Knights and those who serve TWG are nothing more than a vicious military police focused on bringing them to knee in submission.  That does not mean that this position is correct, but it means that they've justified their actions and motives.  An emotional abuser may lie and manipulate and stalk not because they hate the person, but because they love the person and can't live without them. A freedom fighter may strike a blow against the heart of the Empire that's choking out their way of life, 100% certain that they're doing the right thing, and we remember them as terrorists who hijacked a plane full of innocent civilians to kill thousands more.  Feeling that you're in the right does not make you objectively good.  Which brings me to my third and final point

3.       The end rarely justifies the means.  One of the prevailing themes of the Dresden Files is that there’s always a way out; always a choice to be made in which one can still save the day without turning into a monster.  If you’ve gone down the left-hand path to the point in which you’re slaughtering innocents without a second thought, it’s long past time to consider that possibly you’re not the hero that you thought that you were.  That’s so central to Harry’s struggle against his internal darkness, and therefore central to the Dresden Files itself, that I honestly feel that if you disagree with that you’re probably reading the wrong book.

Good intentions are nice and all, but it’s what a person does that really indicates who they are.  You can fairly judge the type of men that the Knights are from the work that they do.  And, I believe, you can fairly judge Mab and Nicodemus based off of that as well.

Long story short:  If Nicodemus’ solution to stopping the Outsiders from destroying the world is to turn it into a nightmarish hellscape full of death, ruin, and destruction, then I’m not sure that he really saved the world from destruction at all.

I pretty much agree with everything you have to say here.  I especially want to affirm part # 2 about people thinking they are the hero of their own story.  At the risk of invoking Hitler in an online discussion, when I read Mein Kampf several years ago I remember being surprised when I found Hitler saying he believed he was "doing God's will."  I looked it up and this is one translation of the exact quote, "I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."  OK, Hitler was an incredible liar; the best chapter in Mein Kampf, or perhaps I should say the most rational chapter, is Hitler's analysis of political propaganda and how to use it.  So that quote about the "Almighty Creator" may be total BS, but imagine if he actually believed it.  I think that is a really scary thought.  So with that thought in mind I can see Nicodemus believing that he is acting for the greater good, in whatever twisted way he defines what is "good."

[TheCuriousFan]

Honestly, the whole argument that Mab is the lesser evil doesn't really make sense to me. Let's compare the two:

Winter Knight
- you only get power, some supernatural strength, and painkiller. All tied to your position of Knight
- you have a constant 24/7 temptation of the instinct that the Mantle awakes in you
- there is literally only one person in the history of mankind that managed to get out of this position alive

Knight of the Blackened Denari
- you get a power boost via Hellfire (and maybe in Dresdens case at this point he could have both Hell and Soulfire) which is directly tied to your position and a Coin holder, you are functional immortal, and you get superb healing no faking via painkillers, but most importantly you get knowledge and magical experience beyond the reach of ANY creature on the planet. This is where the real power boost of the Denari lie, and if you ever leave you get to keep that knowledge.
- the only temptation is intellectual, yes Lash might converse with your subconscious but at the end of the day, those conversations are also based on logic and reason. There is a whole world of difference between being tempted on an instinctual emotional level, and being tempted on a logical Socratic level. IMHO it is much easier to withstand the later than a constant nagging from your urges.
- there is literally a world spanning organisation dedicated to helping you get rid of the coin (and as mentioned if you leave you keep most of the power boost anyway) so your odds of getting out alive are astronomically higher

If you are looking for the best power boost, with the highest chance of retaining yourself, and best odds of surviving and leaving it behind, Denari win out against Mab.

You're forgetting the healing and durability boosts along with the option of more if you start actually drawing on the mantle.

[huangjimmy108]

The morality of the white god is not a clear thing in the Dresden verse but if he promotes free will and offers us the choice between good and evil he is both.

But the knights of the cross are not the white god, they are his PR department. They make him look good.

The fallen are designed as their counterparts. They are as close to absolute evil as Michael is to absolute good. It defines their purpose. They are there to give you that other choice.

Both Uriel and the fallen are after your soul. Maybe one should consider other options. Call Odin if drinking and fighting are your thing,

I like this one: "Call Odin if drinking and fighting are your thing"

Free will is a real force in this reality and surely TWG does not represent everything that is good. Despite that though, TWG is definitely one of the good guys. Not the only good guys, and maybe not the ultimate good guys, but definitely good guys.

Anyone standing on their direct opposite, like the forces of hell, and therefore Nicodemous as their mortal representative, is a good suspect for the title of "Capital E" evil.

When Dierdra and Nick tells me that they are trying to "save the world", even if they truly does not lie outright, I can be almost sure their understanding of "saving the world" is not something acceptable.

The quote from Simon R. Green is probably applicable here: "Hell always lie, unless the truth can hurt you more."

[jonas]

You're forgetting the healing and durability boosts along with the option of more if you start actually drawing on the mantle.

Where does te mantle do those things for arry? I've not seen the Mantle actually heal anything nor indication that it makes him more durable than usual, least any more so than a guy on pcp.