Which absent villian will appear in Peace Talks?

[forumghost]

Nah, I'd rank them lower than that. They were dealt with, Harry beat them... I think their role in the story is done. They were not, in themselves, powerful. They were working under orders and when push came to shove, they literally sent a random mook they grabbed out of their squad rather than face Harry directly.

Yeah, anyone that thinks the Eeb's are a real threat have clearly forgotten that the first time one of them saw Harry coming they began running as fast as he could in the opposite direction, blubbering in terror, only appearing to confront him when he appeared to be alone and half dead, and then ran away again as soon as the felt his allies coming.

They're only dangerous when they have a bunch of allies to kill-steal off (Sorry Esmerelda, but not being of the first Maya has nothing to do with why you don't get promoted. It's because you're scrublords)

[wardenferry419]

I would rank the Eebs somewhere between Madrigal Raith and Vittorio Malvora. They were so effective in Changes due to Harry having more pressing concerns.

[Mr. Death]

Plus, all that stuff about ruining his life was kinda ... incidental. They were just trying to kill him to get him out of the way, not making it personal. Yes, they burned down his house, but not like, "I'll destroy everything you have to make you suffer!" but just as collateral damage for that method of killing him.

The bomb in his office was set by Arianna years before the book, not by the Eebs.

The one "personal" thing (wrecking his car) was done by the Ick.

[forumghost]

And his apartment was only burnt down because he turned off the Wards so that he wouldn't kill the corrupt cops that were trying to frame him.

The Eebs were a bunch of Opportunistic Scrubs, in every case either other people/minions did 99% of the work- and none of them achieved the aim of killing Harry.

And when the time came for them to get their own hands dirty, they punked out- Esteban saw Harry and ran away like a little girl. Esmerelda sensed Mouse coming and they scarpered. Harry was lying unconscious with a broken back and they send some small-time thug after him. The Erlking gave them a chance to fight Harry and Susan on terms that frankly favoured them more then their opponents, and the wussed out and sent their minions to fight in their place.

As far as villains go, they aren't exactly batting a thousand.

[Griffyn612]

I never realized losing every last material possession and selling one's soul meant absolutely nothing to so many people.   

Seriously, I'm not saying that the Eebs are going to be standing side by side in the miasma of dark energy as Cthulhu rises from the depths, bound to their service as they take over the world.  All I'm saying is that they've done more to hurt Harry than any other villain short of DuMorne (psychologically) and Mavra (physically).

I think that their sudden and unexpected appearance at the Peace Talks, in a situation where Harry can't crush them like bugs due to protocol, will be good plot fodder.  Hell, I'm even saying one should die early in the book to frame Harry for murder, and the other can die by the end. 

[Mr. Death]

I never realized losing every last material possession and selling one's soul meant absolutely nothing to so many people.   

Seriously, I'm not saying that the Eebs are going to be standing side by side in the miasma of dark energy as Cthulhu rises from the depths, bound to their service as they take over the world.  All I'm saying is that they've done more to hurt Harry than any other villain short of DuMorne (psychologically) and Mavra (physically).

The thing is, they basically did those by accident, and they weren't even doing it for personal reasons -- they were ordered to. They really had no more beef against Dresden than the average Red Court vampire did.

Harry seems to put the blame on Arianna and the Red Court as a whole for all that, not the Eebs specifically, and from the sound of it, he considers the account settled.

I think that their sudden and unexpected appearance at the Peace Talks, in a situation where Harry can't crush them like bugs due to protocol, will be good plot fodder.  Hell, I'm even saying one should die early in the book to frame Harry for murder, and the other can die by the end.

Honestly, putting themselves in front of Harry Dresden in any capacity seems rather foolish. These are two goons whose main feat of on-screen strength was running through a wall to get away from Harry -- and that was before he was the Winter Knight.

If I were the Eebs and I was lucky enough to survive the Changes curse and I was lucky enough to escape the Erlking's torture chambers, I'd pick a quiet spot as far as physically possible from Harry Dresden to very quietly live out the rest of my days.

[Griffyn612]

The thing is, they basically did those by accident, and they weren't even doing it for personal reasons -- they were ordered to. They really had no more beef against Dresden than the average Red Court vampire did.

Harry seems to put the blame on Arianna and the Red Court as a whole for all that, not the Eebs specifically, and from the sound of it, he considers the account settled.
Honestly, putting themselves in front of Harry Dresden in any capacity seems rather foolish. These are two goons whose main feat of on-screen strength was running through a wall to get away from Harry -- and that was before he was the Winter Knight.

We're talking about Winter Knight Harry "I owed Bob so I did his favor before I made new gear to help keep me alive" Dresden.  If the two Ramps that personally took the most from him and put him in the corner he was in, to have to accept Mab's deal, suddenly appear in front of him, I'm guessing he's going to feel like the scales need further balancing.

If I were the Eebs and I was lucky enough to survive the Changes curse and I was lucky enough to escape the Erlking's torture chambers, I'd pick a quiet spot as far as physically possible from Harry Dresden to very quietly live out the rest of my days.

If they were in charge, sure.  But I don't see them running things.  I see them as pawns for the Fomor, indebted to them and having to do what they ask for now.  If they survived because of Nemesis/Circle ally and are in debt, they won't have a say in it. 

But if they're told to attend the Peace Talks, in order to try and get their claim as the Ramps leaders recognized by the signatories, and that their safety of assured due to Accords rules, the greedy bastards would go. 

[DonBugen]

I know this is deviating from the current debate of "if the Eebs were still alive, would it matter?", but I wanted to throw a vote out for Gregori Cristos.  This would be an excellent time to see if he really is Black Council / Nemfected, or just plain stupid.

[kazimmoinuddin]

They might not have a choice, their patron might deliberatly send them after Harry due to their previous experiences. Our hero would definitly get a reaction from them especially if they go after his daughter, I wonder if they were the ones who abductee her in the first place.

[Mr. Death]

We're talking about Winter Knight Harry "I owed Bob so I did his favor before I made new gear to help keep me alive" Dresden.  If the two Ramps that personally took the most from him and put him in the corner he was in, to have to accept Mab's deal, suddenly appear in front of him, I'm guessing he's going to feel like the scales need further balancing.

I don't doubt that if they showed up, Harry would probably want to kill them, but that kinda applies to any Red Court at this point. But honestly, it's going to be more of a, "They survived? How? ... Huh." than, "I MUST DESTROY YOU RAR."  Arianna was the one behind them. Or the Red King was. Either way, Harry's dealt with the real cause.

It'd be like Harry getting mad at the gun instead of the person who aimed and fired it.

If they were in charge, sure.  But I don't see them running things.  I see them as pawns for the Fomor, indebted to them and having to do what they ask for now.  If they survived because of Nemesis/Circle ally and are in debt, they won't have a say in it.

I honestly don't see why the Fomor would bother. They don't have any of the resources or backing that they used to, they have little to no standing in the Accords, if they're just going to be expendable fodder, why go to the effort?

What do the Fomor have to gain from them that they'd go to the trouble of getting them out of the Erlking's hold? What benefit do the Eebs bring that's worth potentially exposing your mole in the Erlking's army?

[Griffyn612]

I don't doubt that if they showed up, Harry would probably want to kill them, but that kinda applies to any Red Court at this point. But honestly, it's going to be more of a, "They survived? How? ... Huh." than, "I MUST DESTROY YOU RAR."  Arianna was the one behind them. Or the Red King was. Either way, Harry's dealt with the real cause.

It'd be like Harry getting mad at the gun instead of the person who aimed and fired it.
I honestly don't see why the Fomor would bother. They don't have any of the resources or backing that they used to, they have little to no standing in the Accords, if they're just going to be expendable fodder, why go to the effort?

What do the Fomor have to gain from them that they'd go to the trouble of getting them out of the Erlking's hold? What benefit do the Eebs bring that's worth potentially exposing your mole in the Erlking's army?

The Ramps can reproduce fast, assuming they can still reproduce.  Susan was a physical threat from Night One, and she hadn't even fully turned.

We don't know a lot about the Fomor, but they seem to be interested in having fodder.  Hence their use of magically-enhanced servitors.

An individual Ramp is more of a threat than any of the servitors we've seen so far.  So why wouldn't they want them?

We're talking about a pantheon that called other broken pantheons to their side, to unite under one banner.  The Ramp survivors would fit that perfectly. 

Rapid troop build-up with physical attributes better than the Wamps, and the ability to use the latent power of the victim, turning a wizard into a Ramp wizard.  Or a minor talent ectomancer into a Ramp ectomancer.  Or a werewolf into... a batwolf?

The point is, maybe the Fomor are gathering specials to use as body parts.  But maybe they're also sharing some of their kidnap victims with the Ramps, and creating a small army of empowered berserker shock troops that no-one sees coming.

[groinkick]

What about members from the White Court?  I mean if Lord Raith's demise would destabilize everything it would make sense to see some of them wouldn't it?

[wardenferry419]

Is there WOJ that Lord Raith is going to die or is that a rumor/speculation?

[Mr. Death]

The Ramps can reproduce fast, assuming they can still reproduce.  Susan was a physical threat from Night One, and she hadn't even fully turned.

We don't know a lot about the Fomor, but they seem to be interested in having fodder.  Hence their use of magically-enhanced servitors.

An individual Ramp is more of a threat than any of the servitors we've seen so far.  So why wouldn't they want them?

First, that's a pretty big assumption. I'm having trouble accepting that something that seemed to require ritual involving physical components can happen anyway essentially by accident. The Red Court have always seemed the most "physical" of the vampire courts, and the literal, physical blood seems to have been necessary to elevate Bianca.

As for them being more powerful... eh, I'm not totally sold on that. They have a few crippling and -- most importantly -- well-known weaknesses that let pre-infection Susan take a few of them out.

Truth is we don't know what all their servitors can do. Having minions that don't have glaring weaknesses or an addiction to blood might be worth the trade-off of power.

We're talking about a pantheon that called other broken pantheons to their side, to unite under one banner.  The Ramp survivors would fit that perfectly.

If there were more than the two most cowardly examples of the species, I'd agree with you more.

Think of it this way, though. Let's say they show up in Peace Talks on official business. Harry knows where they were last seen. He's on speaking terms with the guy who had them. You don't think he's going to ask? You don't think everyone else -- like the White Council contingent -- is going to notice that the Fomor had been allied with a group that had so recently tried to genocide them?

The Fomor or Nemesis would have to show a few of their holding cards to get them out and keep them out. I don't think it's worth it.

[Kindler]

First, that's a pretty big assumption. I'm having trouble accepting that something that seemed to require ritual involving physical components can happen anyway essentially by accident. The Red Court have always seemed the most "physical" of the vampire courts, and the literal, physical blood seems to have been necessary to elevate Bianca.

As for them being more powerful... eh, I'm not totally sold on that. They have a few crippling and -- most importantly -- well-known weaknesses that let pre-infection Susan take a few of them out.

Truth is we don't know what all their servitors can do. Having minions that don't have glaring weaknesses or an addiction to blood might be worth the trade-off of power.
If there were more than the two most cowardly examples of the species, I'd agree with you more.

Think of it this way, though. Let's say they show up in Peace Talks on official business. Harry knows where they were last seen. He's on speaking terms with the guy who had them. You don't think he's going to ask? You don't think everyone else -- like the White Council contingent -- is going to notice that the Fomor had been allied with a group that had so recently tried to genocide them?

The Fomor or Nemesis would have to show a few of their holding cards to get them out and keep them out. I don't think it's worth it.

I mostly agree that the Eebs are dead anyway, but it might be interesting if they show back up with the Fomor as sponsors, which is an angle I didn't consider. What if they're planning to use the peace talks to demand restitution for, you know, genocide? Is there an equivalent of the Geneva Convention and the Hague? If Harry and, by extension, the White Council (and with Winter's support and tacit approval), committed a war crime, there might be an Accords provision that puts him, Mab, and the Merlin in the hot seat. Hell, with Cristos on the Senior Council, things might get real complicated real quick.

Speaking of which, has the full text of the Unseelie Accords been produced? It's one of those things I'd really like to read, considering how often they show up.