Physical buffs: Question of FATE-points refresh cost

[Tirs]

I didn't  get  this moment - if e.g. character increases his mightby using magic to the Inhuman level, must he lost refresh for this? He don't use items and  the effect is temporary.

[Taran]

Temporary powers cost 1 FP per refresh spent.  Some GMs will let you replace FPs with free tags from appropriate aspects. 

So, if you are using ritual magic to gain inhuman toughness, you can cast a ritual (I think most people agree the complexity should be enough to take you out physically (around 5 shifts) then you need to spend a FP for each point of refresh (2 for inhuman).  That boosts the complexity of the ritual to 9 and the power will only last 1 scene. 

Or you create an appropriate aspect for each refresh (resilient bone structure' and 'increased muscle mass', for example) its 3 shifts of power for each maneuver, so it's a  more expensive ritual than paying a FP. 

Having the power work beyond a scene requires extra shifts into duration and would probably require you to spend a FP or tag an aspect to activate the power every scene after the first until the spell duration runs out. 

If you have sponsored magic or some kind of sponsor power, you can just grab powers from your sponsor but you accrue debt instead of spending FPs for each point of refresh and they only last one scene.    But, in general, having a sponsor can be a justification for buying temporary powers with FPs if it's fitting for the scene and the GM agrees. 

[Tirs]

Thanks. Oh-have,  it'seems hard. OK but whathe if the debtsame already paid? E.g. the requrement was like 'if you are gloriots warrior who did never show his back to enemy, you  just increase your strenght up to THAT level'

[Taran]

That doesn't sound like debt, that sounds like a character aspect.  If you want to have a power that only works in certain situations, you have to buy it.   Maybe attach it to human form so you can get a discount.

Like, maybe make it uncontrollable.  So, when in battle, your appearance changes and you take on a warrior aspect that increases your strength.  Like the Celtic warrior, Cuhulain.   He became all disfigured and would enter a blood fury.  It would have to be a drawback if. You couldn't control it.  If you can control when it happens, then it's just a +1 rebate.

So, yeah, you'd have to buy the power in that case.

[Tirs]

That doesn't sound like debt, that sounds like a character aspect.  If you want to have a power that only works in certain situations, you have to buy it.

What if character needs to spend some kind of resource which is limited? Like blood for vampires.

[Taran]

What if character needs to spend some kind of resource which is limited? Like blood for vampires.

Attach it to something like Feeding Dependency and give yourself a Hunger track.

[Shaft]

Temporary powers cost 1 FP per refresh spent.  Some GMs will let you replace FPs with free tags from appropriate aspects. 

So, if you are using ritual magic to gain inhuman toughness, you can cast a ritual (I think most people agree the complexity should be enough to take you out physically (around 5 shifts) then you need to spend a FP for each point of refresh (2 for inhuman).  That boosts the complexity of the ritual to 9 and the power will only last 1 scene. 

Or you create an appropriate aspect for each refresh (resilient bone structure' and 'increased muscle mass', for example) its 3 shifts of power for each maneuver, so it's a  more expensive ritual than paying a FP. 

Having the power work beyond a scene requires extra shifts into duration and would probably require you to spend a FP or tag an aspect to activate the power every scene after the first until the spell duration runs out. 

If you have sponsored magic or some kind of sponsor power, you can just grab powers from your sponsor but you accrue debt instead of spending FPs for each point of refresh and they only last one scene.    But, in general, having a sponsor can be a justification for buying temporary powers with FPs if it's fitting for the scene and the GM agrees.

I like this mechanic.  Is it a house rule, or is it from one of the rulebooks?

[Taran]

I like this mechanic.  Is it a house rule, or is it from one of the rulebooks?

Not in the rule books.   It's an amalgamation of several conversations that took place on this board.  The one about buying powers with aspects and FPs involved Iago way back during the beta.  Figuring out ritual and 'taking a person out' as an appropriate amount of shifts came along later, probably in a separate thread but, I think, got its roots from the original thread.

It was mostly talking about taking powers as a one-shot deal or whatever.  The end of that thread basically said: "if you are constantly doing the same ritual to buy the same power, just spend the refresh on it.  Thaumaturgy becomes the justification for paying the refresh."

The logic behind 'taking a person out' is that transformation magic cast at a person to, say, turn them into a fish, would be a take-out condition.  So, in order to transform yourself physically, you need to take yourself out.  But since taking consequences is voluntary, you just need enough shifts to bypass their physical stress track and the take out condition would be acquiring the new powers.

I never thought about it before, but if you are acquiring mental powers, you might have to bypass your mental track...

Maybe they added something about it in paranet papers???

[g33k]

I never thought about it before, but if you are acquiring mental powers, you might have to bypass your mental track...

That's a clever thought!

Question, though:  if you have a pre-done spell (e.g. in a potion, an item, etc) that is a shapeshift (bypasses the (physical) Stress Track and (for example) turns you into a bird); and someone else uses it (who can)...  It turns THEM into said critter, instead.  Right?

But what if they have some sort of Toughness, and their stress-track is bigger?

Honestly, it doesn't make much sense that "physically tough" = "resists fixed spells that cause an all-or-nothing effect".

I'm almost inclined to say that this should be "enough shifts to bypass a normal human's Stress Track & cause a Consequence" and then it works (even when they have Toughness).

But I'm not at all sure of this... someone would game the HELL outta this for combat-items.  Maybe add a "willing target" clause...?

<wanders off pondering>

[Taran]

That's a clever thought!

Question, though:  if you have a pre-done spell (e.g. in a potion, an item, etc) that is a shapeshift (bypasses the (physical) Stress Track and (for example) turns you into a bird); and someone else uses it (who can)...  It turns THEM into said critter, instead.  Right?

But what if they have some sort of Toughness, and their stress-track is bigger?

Honestly, it doesn't make much sense that "physically tough" = "resists fixed spells that cause an all-or-nothing effect".

I'm almost inclined to say that this should be "enough shifts to bypass a normal human's Stress Track & cause a Consequence" and then it works (even when they have Toughness).

But I'm not at all sure of this... someone would game the HELL outta this for combat-items.  Maybe add a "willing target" clause...?

<wanders off pondering>

If you are using potions to shapeshift into a bird then, instead of buying a point of refinement to get more potions, spend it on diminuitive size.

A potion that can transform another person requires lots of shifts.  5 shifts + 1FP or +3 shifts/refresh.
So, you need to brew an 8 shift potion that grants diminuitive size for one scene.
Or you give them a 5 shift potion and they have to spend a FP to boost it. 


Honestly, I never thought about it too much.  Buying a toughness power for 1 scene costs 11 shifts. 
Lore 5 + 6 shifts invested through refinements, specialties or Enchanted item slots.

That's a huge resource sink into potions just for one use.  And they only recharge 1/scenario.

But what if they have some sort of Toughness, and their stress-track is bigger?

Honestly, it doesn't make much sense that "physically tough" = "resists fixed spells that cause an all-or-nothing effect".

Well, these aren't 'all or nothing' spells.  If I cast a 6 shifts spell against an enemy, a tougher opponent will be able to soak more damage.  The spell doesn't really know the difference between friend or foe.  If you take meds, they're usually dosed based on your weight/size etc...a 300lb person won't be affected the same way as a 120lb person if they're given the same drug. 

Just my opinion.  I'm sure this has all been discussed before.  If I get around to it, I'll post the thread.

Maybe add a "willing target" clause...?

The only mechanic you have to make it easier is to choose not to resist.  This is why it's 5 shifts.  a 4 shift stress track needs 5 shifts of energy to bypass...unless they resist.  In which case, to be safe, you should pump in 9 shifts (in case they roll a +4 on the dice).  Not to mention that, if their stress track is 0000, it means they have an endurance of +4.  So, you need to an additional 4 shifts for a total of 13.  Just to be sure you automatically taken them out...

[Sanctaphrax]

Not in the rule books.   It's an amalgamation of several conversations that took place on this board.  The one about buying powers with aspects and FPs involved Iago way back during the beta.  Figuring out ritual and 'taking a person out' as an appropriate amount of shifts came along later, probably in a separate thread but, I think, got its roots from the original thread.

The Temporary Powers sidebar on page 92 of Your Story was also a major influence, I believe.

Maybe they added something about it in paranet papers???

Dunno if PP has anything about mental transformations. It does have another set of rules for granting powers through thaumaturgy, though, on page 262.

Honestly, it doesn't make much sense that "physically tough" = "resists fixed spells that cause an all-or-nothing effect".

I agree, for the record. Not a big fan of the take-out-to-transform approach. But the rules are what they are.