Bob's Personality, and Justin

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can ya give me some references for that inference? Cause i'm not sure what you mean.

Maeve was Nemfected, not the Winter Lady Mantle, as evidenced by Molly not being Nemfected when the mantle took her.  Ditto Aurora and Lily.  Had Nemfection been capable of sticking to the mantle, then Mab would have already long since Lost and non of the event of Cold Days would have been needed. 

Perhaps. And I do see merit most immortals are broken off of the same sources, but I see something else there too. Let's go ahead and make that bet if you like? The bet is, after PT i'll not have such trouble persuading ppl Bob's a mini deity

Not a fair bet, that only happens if we get a new and/or more specific definition of "diety"

Fwiw though, I have no particularissues with calling Bob a mini-diety, it's calling him a souled being that I disagree with. 

Now... that's a good point. But it's making a leap between friendship and true love I don't think is there. Unless your saying Murphy and Harry were indelibly and equally in love in SmF? I thought that comradery and other things the soul is made of beside love itself would work, since 'true love' isn't really a formative of friendship itself.
Unless your also saying the soul is equal to love, but that's like saying soul is equal to magic isn't it?

Im not equating Friendship and True Love, though I do personally think they could be called degrees of the same thing.  What I am doing is attributing the the two instances of Soul-Chunk exchange to the same mechanism (which was the context they were introduced by bob, back in WN), and by extension applying the same limitations to both.  Soul Exchanged in a moment of True Love keeps the extra energies of True Love, but it's the Soul exchange that makes it a lasting protection on a person (by contrast Object absorb that energy via some other mechanism).  And thus Id argue that /any/ Soul Exchange requires a two-way "exchange" and by extension that the two need to be equals.  I could be wrong though, this is more based on impressions than evidence. 

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And yet the atheme transferred an infection of the soul, but it has none of it's own? It gave a out a Mortal affliction.

No, it hasn't. In fact it has very notably not yet infected anyone /with/ a Soul, let alone infected a Soul directly. 

[jonas]

Maeve was Nemfected, not the Winter Lady Mantle, as evidenced by Molly not being Nemfected when the mantle took her.  Ditto Aurora and Lily.  Had Nemfection been capable of sticking to the mantle, then Mab would have already long since Lost and non of the event of Cold Days would have been needed.

Not a fair bet, that only happens if we get a new and/or more specific definition of "diety"

Can we prove the Mantle isn't Nfected? I figured that's why Mab bothered to cleanse the WK mantle, it would have went through her to get back to Harry without a cleansing otherwise.. Look at it this way, The mantle is Nfected/off balance but the host is not. That's the whole point to having a mantle yes? The ability to resist as the mortal host, add on starborn and then you can resist and remold the mantle you wear. And why Cat Sith failed out? He's the thing itself, maybe a Eldest mantle but no kitty underneath. Lets reword it then, That the formative difference between Bob and a Mantle is Bob's 'deal' is different, the Mantle lives in the Host. The connections the same, the influence is the same, it's all the same except Bob is defined differently.

Fwiw though, I have no particularissues with calling Bob a mini-diety, it's calling him a souled being that I disagree with. 

It's more toward Magic/soul connection. It's where Nemesis slips in and changes imo. Lash had no soul but changed based on transference from Dresden, transference that largely happened because of the relationship communicating with each other NOT because she simply lived in his head.(what means fwiw anyway?)

Im not equating Friendship and True Love, though I do personally think they could be called degrees of the same thing.  What I am doing is attributing the the two instances of Soul-Chunk exchange to the same mechanism (which was the context they were introduced by bob, back in WN), and by extension applying the same limitations to both.  Soul Exchanged in a moment of True Love keeps the extra energies of True Love, but it's the Soul exchange that makes it a lasting protection on a person (by contrast Object absorb that energy via some other mechanism). And thus Id argue that /any/ Soul Exchange requires a two-way "exchange" and by extension that the two need to be equals.  I could be wrong though, this is more based on impressions than evidence.

I wanna disagree, but I can't remember the precise wordings when they were introduced lol.

[jonas]

No, it hasn't. In fact it has very notably not yet infected anyone /with/ a Soul, let alone infected a Soul directly.

See above, it's the soul that's the mortal affliction on theses soulless immortals. It's the soul that carries it. they lack soul intentionally, (if all mantles are broken down from graces and angels are ALL soul.. then what did they remove from the Grace to just get a mantle? the soul) i'd have to go back to scratch and come at this from the collective subconscious, Nemesis Mirrors your shadow, ect theorem... do you really want me to do that? I get tired of running uphill sometimes.

*we definitely need to have a discussion an mantles and immortals you and me. work out some detail together  

[Rasins]

Can we prove the Mantle isn't Nfected? I figured that's why Mab bothered to cleanse the WK mantle, it would have went through her to get back to Harry without a cleansing otherwise.. Look at it this way, The mantle is Nfected/off balance but the host is not. That's the whole point to having a mantle yes? The ability to resist as the mortal host, add on starborn and then you can resist and remold the mantle you wear. And why Cat Sith failed out? He's the thing itself, maybe a Eldest mantle but no kitty underneath. Lets reword it then, That the formative difference between Bob and a Mantle is Bob's 'deal' is different, the Mantle lives in the Host. The connections the same, the influence is the same, it's all the same except Bob is defined differently.
It's more toward Magic/soul connection. It's where Nemesis slips in and changes imo. Lash had no soul but changed based on transference from Dresden, transference that largely happened because of the relationship communicating with each other NOT because she simply lived in his head.(what means fwiw anyway?)I wanna disagree, but I can't remember the precise wordings when they were introduced lol.

Are you talking about it passing through the Stone Table?

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See above, it's the soul that's the mortal affliction on theses soulless immortals. It's the soul that carries it. they lack soul intentionally, (if all mantles are broken down from graces and angels are ALL soul.. then what did they remove from the Grace to just get a mantle? the soul) i'd have to go back to scratch and come at this from the collective subconscious, Nemesis Mirrors your shadow, ect theorem... do you really want me to do that? I get tired of running uphill sometimes.

*we definitely need to have a discussion an mantles and immortals you and me. work out some detail together

What Mortal Affliction are you talking about, because the only person that ever used that phrase was Maeve, in reference to "mortal notions. Good, evil, love. All those other things your kind natter on about" and in a conversation where we Know she was Lying.

Can we prove the Mantle isn't Nfected? I figured that's why Mab bothered to cleanse the WK mantle, it would have went through her to get back to Harry without a cleansing otherwise.. Look at it this way, The mantle is Nfected/off balance but the host is not. That's the whole point to having a mantle yes? The ability to resist as the mortal host, add on starborn and then you can resist and remold the mantle you wear.

I mean, we have evidence in the fact that it didnt Nemfect Molly.  We've even been inside her head since then, with no sinister indications.  Short of Jim or Rashid stating it directly, I dont know what more you'd need. 

And why Cat Sith failed out? He's the thing itself, maybe a Eldest mantle but no kitty underneath. Lets reword it then, That the formative difference between Bob and a Mantle is Bob's 'deal' is different, the Mantle lives in the Host. The connections the same, the influence is the same, it's all the same except Bob is defined differently.

I dont think this can be the case.  Per WOJ the Eldest is a Mantle, specifically in reference to Cat Sith, and it would pass to the next Eldest.  So that means that Eldest does not mean Progenitor, and so the Current eldest has to have formerly been a "kitty underneath", no?

I wanna disagree, but I can't remember the precise wordings when they were introduced lol.

(click to show/hide)

"Part of my soul is gone and I'm not supposed to be worried about that?" I demanded.

"Happens all the time," Bob said. "You shared a bunch of yours with Susan, and she with you. It's what protected you from Lara Raith. You and Murphy swapped some pretty recently, looks like—you must have gotten a hug or something. Honestly, Harry, you really ought to bang her and get it over wi—"

I reached under the worktable, drew out a claw hammer, and gave Bob a pointed look.

"Um, right," he said. "Back to business. Uh, your soul. You give away pieces of yourself all the time. Everyone does. Some of it goes out with your magic, too. It grows back. Relax, boss."

[jonas]

Are you talking about it passing through the Stone Table?

Yes, according to SK when the knight passes it simply goes to the nearest reflection of itself, one of the queens. So it woulda went right to her and then she could bestow it on Harry. But instead she involves the stone table and a knife of credible pedigree for.. and I can't remember precisely how it was wojed, events of proportionally larger importance. Sure she ate him up into it gaining a bit of power to Winter, but then what's the dagger for?
Looongg time ago I theorized it actually was originally used against N infecting Jason through the golden fleece. He left his wife and family for riches wealth and power and then Medea killed him and made him eat his children... If she's not the bad guy in that there has to be something to it right lol?

[Rasins]

See, I don't recall the Stone Table being part of Mab giving Harry the Mantle.  I don't recall the mantle going THOUGH the table.  I do recall Slate's blood going into the table and his lifeforce going into it.

But then I think Mab, the current owner of the Table that time, used Slate's life-force to heal Harry.  The Mantle itself went to Mab (even though we didn't see a smokey thing moving like we did with the ladies mantles) and Mab bestowed it on Harry.

Now, let's assume it did go though the Table and the table filtered out the Nemfection.  Where did that waste product go?  Is it still in the Stone table?  Is the Stone Table now infected?

[jonas]

What Mortal Affliction are you talking about, because the only person that ever used that phrase was Maeve, in reference to "mortal notions. Good, evil, love. All those other things your kind natter on about" and in a conversation where we Know she was Lying.

Where she was discovering it actually, near the end she lies for first time, you can tell cause the ability surprises her. Also Woj about spending to long with humans and we did it..(i'll look, I know it's pretty old, should be just off the main list still)

I mean, we have evidence in the fact that it didnt Nemfect Molly.  We've even been inside her head since then, with no sinister indications.  Short of Jim or Rashid stating it directly, I dont know what more you'd need. 


And why Cat Sith failed out? He's the thing itself, maybe a Eldest mantle but no kitty underneath. Lets reword it then, That the formative difference between Bob and a Mantle is Bob's 'deal' is different, the Mantle lives in the Host. The connections the same, the influence is the same, it's all the same except Bob is defined differently.

I dont think this can be the case.  Per WOJ the Eldest is a Mantle, specifically in reference to Cat Sith, and it would pass to the next Eldest.  So that means that Eldest does not mean Progenitor, and so the Current eldest has to have formerly been a "kitty underneath", no?

(click to show/hide)

I'm goin g to call back your previous statement for a more thorough look, get back to above later..
I meant no mortal being, he was always a malk, always fae. He's an immortal with a position as apposed to a mortal assuming an immortal position.

Maeve was Nemfected, not the Winter Lady Mantle, as evidenced by Molly not being Nemfected when the mantle took her.  Ditto Aurora and Lily.  Had Nemfection been capable of sticking to the mantle, then Mab would have already long since Lost and non of the event of Cold Days would have been needed.

We previously asserted we had seen no mortals Nfected but here your saying it was the mortal Host Not the mantle/deity itself... this is part of why sometimes I feel ppl just look to prove wrong without actually thinking about what their saying... it's either the host, or the mantle/thing itself that's infected, how can it be both?

[jonas]

See, I don't recall the Stone Table being part of Mab giving Harry the Mantle.  I don't recall the mantle going THOUGH the table.  I do recall Slate's blood going into the table and his lifeforce going into it.

But then I think Mab, the current owner of the Table that time, used Slate's life-force to heal Harry.  The Mantle itself went to Mab (even though we didn't see a smokey thing moving like we did with the ladies mantles) and Mab bestowed it on Harry.

Now, let's assume it did go though the Table and the table filtered out the Nemfection.  Where did that waste product go?  Is it still in the Stone table?  Is the Stone Table now infected?

And if the Sk when through it then all of the SK's power would have went to winter yes? She essentially unmade and remade the mantle for Harry as opposed to bestowing the mantle to him by it going directly back to her. By killing him on the table it effectively killed the mantle while giving her back it's power, as opposed to taking in a potentially tainted WK mantle.
Since you asked, the table kills the associated consciousness and 'spirit' while preserving the power itself... It's a way around the you are what you eat Guide. That unfortunately has the potential to leave a lot of 'dead' conscious minds not yet forgotten by humanity into Oblivion, yet trying to find their way back in.

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Where she was discovering it actually, near the end she lies for first time, you can tell cause the ability surprises her.   Also Woj about spending to long with humans and we did it..(i'll look, I know it's pretty old, should be just off the main list still)I'm going to call back your previous statement for a more thorough look, get back to above later..

I literally have no idea what you are talking about here...?

We previously asserted we had seen no mortals Nfected but here your saying it was the mortal Host Not the mantle/deity itself... this is part of why sometimes I feel ppl just look to prove wrong without actually thinking about what their saying... it's either the host, or the mantle/thing itself that's infected, how can it be both?

Yes, the Host is what is Nemfected and not the Mantle, but there is a vast difference between a Host and a Mortal.  Maeve had not be a "Mortal" in that sense since she made her Changeling Choice way back when.  That is entirely discinct from being the vessel of a Mantle. 


We read your posts, but you are taking lots of very distinct things and conflating them into one, sometimes in your own logic but not even in the post; makes it difficult to tease out your real meaning.   

[jonas]

I literally have no idea what you are talking about here...?

old woj, looking but I'm mentally exhausted for now. Or do you mean the lying? if you read the scene like a... whats good word? c.i.a. analyst lol? you'll notice she actually hesitates right before she lies to Harry, as she's not yet sure she can, she was still off balance from dealing with Nfection at first. too distracted to be lying. I assume like with Lily, it was an outlined choice/bargain but she was still reeling from what it did to her on the inside.

Yes, the Host is what is Nemfected and not the Mantle, but there is a vast difference between a Host and a Mortal.  Maeve had not be a "Mortal" in that sense since she made her Changeling Choice way back when.  That is entirely discinct from being the vessel of a Mantle.

Now when someone else makes an assumption I feel like i'd get my theory torn into for making, how should I respond? Lily apparently Made her choice automatically and Molly isn't actually a changling. Can you define this distinction in anything that corresponds to what we know? Cause that's basically a theory without the premise it came from. Nothing shows it's different, and you haven't yet gave me any inference why it's valid.
Your making the same logical leaps I do without, but I know i'm doing them(usually) and ignoring what we all know we don't know for sure of in Molly's situation. Cause lets say she did lose her soul, she can't choose to change and leave and neither can she become more in tune with the Ladies Mantle. Choice gone, change is gone, stuck half in half out. Ignores MS talking about remaining who you are despite winter's cold too.

We read your posts, but you are taking lots of very distinct things and conflating them into one, sometimes in your own logic but not even in the post; makes it difficult to tease out your real meaning.   

Sorry bout that... but if it helps the logic not being put into the post is stuff I take for granted already having argued it here at least once or otherwise witnessed it put forth. Would be good to have a huge thread put together of the disparate parts of all my idea's so I can argue them better and keep the evidence organized but that just didn't work out for me unlike others <.< >.> All for piggybacking on others good idea's though, it's where civilization comes from
They are all one. If I could show you that... I could show you how I could place such bet's without being at all uncertain i'm right. Things beta readers wish they understood.
*And you know... to compare it to the mathematician savant, sometimes an answer is readily apparent and accurate by intuition that then has to be taken back to the drawing board to explain it to others. I could [l]talk[/l]type all day and your only seeing a percentage of my 'drawing board'. Or my other favorite metaphor for communication, slightly altered, Two artist are drawing the same backwoods house. They take separate trails and see two separate sides never meeting or seeing the same view but taking their work back to town and comparing artwork. Even though they can look at this picture neither can ever see what the other guy actually saw. And so they argue and bicker over who drew the true representation while neither one is actually willing to just walk around and leave their perspective to see just what the other guy saw. and what they had seen was incomplete in and of itself, because it was beyond fathomable to just go up and walk inside the house and see what it really was. Or to use a better know metaphor, the guy with the snake wouldn't let go what he 'saw' to go check out the wall the other guy had or vice versa :p (can't remember the 3rd part of the elephant offhand)

[Quantus]

old woj, looking but I'm mentally exhausted for now. Or do you mean the lying? if you read the scene like a... whats good word? c.i.a. analyst lol? you'll notice she actually hesitates right before she lies to Harry, as she's not yet sure she can, she was still off balance from dealing with Nfection at first. too distracted to be lying.

No, the WOJ isnt the issue, this is just the first time Ive heard the theory that the scene in PG was her first time lying.  That's interesting, not a read Id heard of before, but not impossible I guess.  The only issue I have with that is the timeline, we know that Maeve was Nemfected by Lea, and by PG Lea had been locked up for at least a year (sometime between SK and DB). 

I assume like with Lily, it was an outlined choice/bargain but she was still reeling from what it did to her on the inside.

Can you elaborate on that, Im not sure what you are referring to.  Choice (conscious or unconscious) I coudl see, but what "bargain"?

Now when someone else makes an assumption I feel like i'd get my theory torn into for making, how should I respond?

I try to point underlying assumptions out where-ever I can.  My own, others, whatever.  We cant talk Apples to Apples if we all keep saying Round Fruit

Lily apparently Made her choice automatically and Molly isn't actually a changling. Can you define this distinction in anything that corresponds to what we know? Cause that's basically a theory without the premise it came from.

The short answer is No, I cannot explain Molly to any satisfying degree, and I dont think anyone has yet.  The best we can come up with is that Molly and the other Carpenter kids have Fae blood but are not first-generation Changelings.  There's WOJ that it works that way, but the more generations removed, the more you need exposure to Fae/magic/etc as an environmental stimulus to wake it up; Molly's time in Arctis Tor and especially her tutalage under Lea would do it.  And it would explain the

As far as Lily goes, by her own words she was not immediately forced to make her Choice when she got the Mantle at the end of SK, but I think that by actually accepting the Duties of the Lady that choice would move to unconscious territory pretty quickly. 

Nothing shows it's different, and you haven't yet gave me any inference why it's valid.

How are they not?  All Changelings Choose to be Mortal or Not Mortal (ie Fae); "Mortal" is over there on that side of the terminology tree.  "Mantles" are this whole other thing (we've seen them manifest in a Hawk form and Serpent Form, both sidhe examples), All need Hosts but some of which latch onto Mortals (like the Knight Mantles) while others take a non-mortal Host (Eldest Fae, etc) and elevate them to true "Immortal" status (as opposed too "Ageless" things that can still be killed freely). The Venn Diagrams overlap, but they are defined by different things. 

Your making the same logical leaps I do without, but I know i'm doing them(usually) and ignoring what we all know we don't know for sure of in Molly's situation. Cause lets say she did lose her soul, she can't choose to change and leave and neither can she become more in tune with the Ladies Mantle. Choice gone, change is gone, stuck half in half out. Ignores MS talking about remaining who you are despite winter's cold too.

Ive kind of lost track of where you were going with this logial push, so forgive me if I miss the mark here.

Per WOJ, Molly will inevitably loose her Soul, but it was not a light-switch thing; it's going to be gradual (and vary based on unspecified factors); so on that side there shouldnt be any getting stuck half-way on the logic that there will be a transition period. 

Separately though, I dont think it would have been an issue regardless.  Not having a Soul doesnt make you immune to Change (the closest thing to that is the Angels that are too "Absolute" to be Nemfected) rather the soul is what lets you initiate Self-Change; Molly is being Changed by an external Force (the Mantle), which is entirely possible for souless creatures with no Free Will (per the old WOJ you were referencing earlier). 

Sorry bout that... but if it helps the logic not being put into the post is stuff I take for granted already having argued it here at least once or otherwise witnessed it put forth. Would be good to have a huge thread put together of the disparate parts of all my idea's so I can argue them better and keep the evidence organized but that just didn't work out for me unlike others <.< >.> All for piggybacking on others good idea's though, it's where civilization comes from

They are all one. If I could show you that... I could show you how I could place such bet's without being at all uncertain i'm right. Things beta readers wish they understood.

*And you know... to compare it to the mathematician savant, sometimes an answer is readily apparent and accurate by intuition that then has to be taken back to the drawing board to explain it to others. I could [l]talk[/l]type all day and your only seeing a percentage of my 'drawing board'. Or my other favorite metaphor for communication, slightly altered, Two artist are drawing the same backwoods house. They take separate trails and see two separate sides never meeting or seeing the same view but taking their work back to town and comparing artwork. Even though they can look at this picture neither can ever see what the other guy actually saw. And so they argue and bicker over who drew the true representation while neither one is actually willing to just walk around and leave their perspective to see just what the other guy saw. and what they had seen was incomplete in and of itself, because it was beyond fathomable to just go up and walk inside the house and see what it really was. Or to use a better know metaphor, the guy with the snake wouldn't let go what he 'saw' to go check out the wall the other guy had or vice versa :p (can't remember the 3rd part of the elephant offhand)

I feel your pain I keep trying to find the time to sit down and type up all my various thoughts into a Grand Unifying Theory like Serack's, but alas no dice yet.

The main reason I keep in these conversations, even the dead horse topics, is that the more I talk about it the more and more of my own assumptions I twig on, and so can include explicitly them in future theories.  It sometimes just baffles me when people look at the same evidence I have and start talking about (what seem to be (wildly unrelated things).  But that's usually my first clue that Im thinking Apples, they're thinking Oranges, and we're both actually just saying "The Fruit, man.  The Fruit!!"

[jonas]

No, the WOJ isnt the issue, this is just the first time Ive heard the theory that the scene in PG was her first time lying.  That's interesting, not a read Id heard of before, but not impossible I guess.  The only issue I have with that is the timeline, we know that Maeve was Nemfected by Lea, and by PG Lea had been locked up for at least a year (sometime between SK and DB).

Not sure your issue, that she'd been infected awhile or..? I figure it took awhile to come to full fruitation.

Can you elaborate on that, Im not sure what you are referring to.  Choice (conscious or unconscious) I coudl see, but what "bargain"?

Oops, I meant Aurora. She talks about how what she was doing wasn't her idea but 'the price that was set'.

I try to point underlying assumptions out where-ever I can.  My own, others, whatever.  We cant talk Apples to Apples if we all keep saying Round Fruit

The short answer is No, I cannot explain Molly to any satisfying degree, and I dont think anyone has yet.  The best we can come up with is that Molly and the other Carpenter kids have Fae blood but are not first-generation Changelings.  There's WOJ that it works that way, but the more generations removed, the more you need exposure to Fae/magic/etc as an environmental stimulus to wake it up; Molly's time in Arctis Tor and especially her tutalage under Lea would do it.  And it would explain the

Way I figure it, wizards are actually closer to 'half born' but they never usually chose to be anything other than human, where as at some point a mutual ancestor choose to become fae. I see Merlin and his sister Morgana connect to meso and Egyptian mythos as the originators as scions capable of magic.(merlin=Egyptian Horus is an easy connection... Horus being the embodiment of the Moon and GK domain IS the moon, well I see possibilities) One chose mortality(as is sorta mirrored in Odins choices) and the other became something more. I think the recent woj about changlings and if they ever twig to the fact they HAVE a choice includes wizards, especially some of the older ones. This could be a big problem with why warlocks can't be redeemed beyond a certain point, they choose to stop being human, like the 'god' who gets executed in PG.

As far as Lily goes, by her own words she was not immediately forced to make her Choice when she got the Mantle at the end of SK, but I think that by actually accepting the Duties of the Lady that choice would move to unconscious territory pretty quickly. 
How are they not?  All Changelings Choose to be Mortal or Not Mortal (ie Fae); "Mortal" is over there on that side of the terminology tree.  "Mantles" are this whole other thing (we've seen them manifest in a Hawk form and Serpent Form, both sidhe examples), All need Hosts but some of which latch onto Mortals (like the Knight Mantles) while others take a non-mortal Host (Eldest Fae, etc) and elevate them to true "Immortal" status (as opposed too "Ageless" things that can still be killed freely). The Venn Diagrams overlap, but they are defined by different things.

I still can't see why that makes the host Nfected. One of the reasons I say it is the mantle btw, is because of Lily(that's the correct one this time lol). Even at her most sadistic Aurora was pretty in control til the end. Though she'd actually let her overall emotional perspective slip askewed. Lily... less so, and I think it's cause the mantle went to a changling who became fae but lacks something Molly might also possess, starborn resistance. After acclimating to the mantle for 10 years she's nothing like the conserved Aurora we first meet still putting on proper SL show. Her reflex use of a blanket blast of fire vs the assertion summer must be controlled in how it chooses to use its power stands in stark contrast. She's losing her mind to the mantle, which is emotionally unstable. Could be why mab was wrong on who deserved which mantle, the balance between the two is off.

Ive kind of lost track of where you were going with this logial push, so forgive me if I miss the mark here.

Per WOJ, Molly will inevitably loose her Soul, but it was not a light-switch thing; it's going to be gradual (and vary based on unspecified factors); so on that side there shouldnt be any getting stuck half-way on the logic that there will be a transition period.

The actual sentence itself is contradicted as he utters it though.... I was pointing out you haven't explained the differences between host, mortal and mantle and why the host is infected. point of fact only things in the immortal land we know have been infected have mantles, so how can we say it's the host as an immortal?
Hey btw, this is exactly the same thing i'm pointing out happens to red's until they are bloodslaves. So if she can use a cell phone being immortal but not have faded her soul then I see no reason why a red can't still be clinging but unable to soul gaze

Separately though, I dont think it would have been an issue regardless.  Not having a Soul doesnt make you immune to Change (the closest thing to that is the Angels that are too "Absolute" to be Nemfected) rather the soul is what lets you initiate Self-Change; Molly is being Changed by an external Force (the Mantle), which is entirely possible for souless creatures with no Free Will (per the old WOJ you were referencing earlier). 

But only from mortal magic or soul. How can a spirit mantle change an immortal host? No soul to initiate change by your claim.. unless it's slowly subsuming Hers' which is exactly what I think it does. Mortal magic possessing the same spark of change that souls have can be best proven if I cite Wizards being able to be crazy enough to simply open a way for an outsider. It's capable of giving something 'life' in reality.
*hey maybe that means everytime she uses magic it feeds the mantle instead, at which point it becomes exactly like an insulation against using certain magics yourself and acceptably explains why her aura changes. It's leaching it dry of mortal essence. Feeding the same way a fallen does(YES, everything's the same lol).

I feel your pain I keep trying to find the time to sit down and type up all my various thoughts into a Grand Unifying Theory like Serack's, but alas no dice yet.

The main reason I keep in these conversations, even the dead horse topics, is that the more I talk about it the more and more of my own assumptions I twig on, and so can include explicitly them in future theories.  It sometimes just baffles me when people look at the same evidence I have and start talking about (what seem to be (wildly unrelated things).  But that's usually my first clue that Im thinking Apples, they're thinking Oranges, and we're both actually just saying "The Fruit, man.  The Fruit!!"

Yep, arguing my case is the best way to flesh out my own thinking on something. I consistently make better fluid arguments for something than sit down and organize something decent, or even legible. Knowing what the problem in communication of an idea is helps to better address said issue.

[Rasins]

And if the Sk when through it then all of the SK's power would have went to winter yes? She essentially unmade and remade the mantle for Harry as opposed to bestowing the mantle to him by it going directly back to her. By killing him on the table it effectively killed the mantle while giving her back it's power, as opposed to taking in a potentially tainted WK mantle.
Since you asked, the table kills the associated consciousness and 'spirit' while preserving the power itself... It's a way around the you are what you eat Guide. That unfortunately has the potential to leave a lot of 'dead' conscious minds not yet forgotten by humanity into Oblivion, yet trying to find their way back in.

I'm struggling with your assertion that the table is anything other than a conduit for power. 

What makes you think that the WK's mantle was tainted in any way?

Also, we know the life-force of Slate was given to Winter, but the WK mantle was not.  It was already Winter's so there is no reason for it to have gone through the table.  It DID just go back to Mab and she bestowed it on Harry.

I'm not seeing any evidence that the WK mantle went through the table to Mab to Harry, nor that the table is anything other than a conduit.