Bob's Personality, and Justin

[Kindler]

Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm doing a series reread for the...severalth time this year in preparation for Briefcases, and I find myself thinking about Bob discussing first impressions. After Butters takes ownership of the Skull, Bob explains to Harry that the reason he isn't all that different is because Butters' first impression of him was when he was still Harry's Bob. We saw what he was like when he was Kemmler's assistant in Dead Beat, and from that and other things Bob has said, Bob changes based on the owner's personalities—but those first impressions really matter, and set the tone.

Now, Harry pulled Bob out from the wreckage of Justin's house, that much we know.

But why would he have done that? Bob's just a skull. Harry would have had no reason to go back for him—unless he knew what he was. And if he saw him working with Justin, what could he possibly have been like for Harry's first impression of him to be... so Bob-like?

What I'm getting at is that it's entirely possible that Bob was much closer to Harry's Bob when Justin had him than we might think—which says some things about Justin.

My question is this: how close do you think Harry's Bob was to Justin's Bob (because I'm basing this on the first impressions comment Bob has made, and if you don't think it's valid, then the rest doesn't really matter), and does this mean that we might have the wrong idea about Justin's personality?

For the record, I'm not trying to lionize a villain, I'm just curious if we've had a clue into his personality for a while.

[LordDresden2]

Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm doing a series reread for the...severalth time this year in preparation for Briefcases, and I find myself thinking about Bob discussing first impressions. After Butters takes ownership of the Skull, Bob explains to Harry that the reason he isn't all that different is because Butters' first impression of him was when he was still Harry's Bob. We saw what he was like when he was Kemmler's assistant in Dead Beat, and from that and other things Bob has said, Bob changes based on the owner's personalities—but those first impressions really matter, and set the tone.

Now, Harry pulled Bob out from the wreckage of Justin's house, that much we know.

But why would he have done that? Bob's just a skull. Harry would have had no reason to go back for him—unless he knew what he was. And if he saw him working with Justin, what could he possibly have been like for Harry's first impression of him to be... so Bob-like?

What I'm getting at is that it's entirely possible that Bob was much closer to Harry's Bob when Justin had him than we might think—which says some things about Justin.

My question is this: how close do you think Harry's Bob was to Justin's Bob (because I'm basing this on the first impressions comment Bob has made, and if you don't think it's valid, then the rest doesn't really matter), and does this mean that we might have the wrong idea about Justin's personality?

For the record, I'm not trying to lionize a villain, I'm just curious if we've had a clue into his personality for a while.

We don't really know anything about Justin's overall personality, except for a few tidbits from Harry and Bob and Elaine.  We know he was Bad, but you can be a Bad Guy and still be an easy going sort (at least on the surface, and before the corruption eats you entirely).  I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Margaret was a lot of fun to have around, either.  Sometimes it's easier to be a fun person if you're one of the bad guys, and don't care about the consequences for others.

About all we know from Harry is that Justin was smart, powerful, strict, and willing to use pain as a teaching tool.  None of that is necessarily bad, but all of it is compatible with Bad.

Apparently he could also seem loving or caring enough to make it shocking and traumatic for Harry and Elaine to discover the reality.  OTOH, Bob has told Harry that Justin had a messed up set of priorities, too.

We don't know how Harry and Bob started working together.  It might make an interesting story, but we have no data to even use for speculation.

As for Bob's personality, it changes with ownership of the skull...but there are common threads, it's clear that Bob is not a total blank slate.  For ex, he dislike being Necro-Bob, to the point of suppressing that part of his personality.  When he had a chance to choose between Cowl and Harry, he chose Harry.  Harry notes in Skin Game that spirits of intellect might claim to be just that, but in fact they had attachments and preferences and feelings.

So there are probably common threads in Bob's overall personality, the rearrange with new owners but don't totally reset from zero.

[Mira]

   I seem to remember that when Justin had Bob he still retained a lot of the Kemmler aspect of his personality.   When Harry recovered his skull he named him Bob, and ordered him to block his memories of Kemmler, and with that that aspect of his personality disappeared and was filled in by that of the hormonal teenage Harry, hence the obsession with all things sexually connected.

[pcpoet]

I wonder how it will bowed for Bonnie's personality.  will ownership of her wooden skull and expectation of harriy dictate the personality. will the fact that his daughter interacts with the wooden skull help set up the personality.

[jonas]

   I seem to remember that when Justin had Bob he still retained a lot of the Kemmler aspect of his personality.   When Harry recovered his skull he named him Bob, and ordered him to block his memories of Kemmler, and with that that aspect of his personality disappeared and was filled in by that of the hormonal teenage Harry, hence the obsession with all things sexually connected.

Harry never originally told bob to block those memories. It's almost implied he did it himself but I doubt his ability to.

*we need to look more far reaching into who and what bob is...

[khadgar4606]

bonnie is gonna be quite powerful on multiple sense we got lashciels memories along with harry's so bonnie is gonna be quite rebel and unless we have proper explanation we cant peg her in any power level but she is gonna be major player on team maggie probably as smart girl of the team

[Zaphodess]

Harry never originally told bob to block those memories. It's almost implied he did it himself but I doubt his ability to.

*we need to look more far reaching into who and what bob is...

I think Justin ordered him to suppress that part because evil Bob was dangerous - to its owner too. We saw that in Dead Beat when he tried to kill Harry and in GS, when evil Bob sort of betrayed Corpsetaker's ghost.

[Mira]

Harry never originally told bob to block those memories. It's almost implied he did it himself but I doubt his ability to.

*we need to look more far reaching into who and what bob is...

  You're right, I found the passage, Bob chose to forget everything about Kemmler, but then Harry in Dead Beat commanded him to recall those memories.. Then Bob nearly killed him, and then Harry commanded him to block forever those memories.   But I think it is told a little different in Ghost Story.

[jonas]

  You're right, I found the passage, Bob chose to forget everything about Kemmler, but then Harry in Dead Beat commanded him to recall those memories.. Then Bob nearly killed him, and then Harry commanded him to block forever those memories.   But I think it is told a little different in Ghost Story.

OMG OMG OMG! yes, yes.... I think this is reason I simply MUST make a thread about bob, compile everything I can. that's awesome.

You made me realize something kinda obvious in hindsight if you don't limit yourself to your current perspective(read- be open minded). Bob did something very unique that nearly everything associated with a certain genus can do, but which isn't readily applicable to Bob. Despite Bob being 'non associative' with the faith wave length. He did something angelic, he chose to rise. He flipped the one switch associated to true immortals :0 ? some corollary, working closely with wizards give bob a lot of contact with their aura, Kemmler twisted the very nature of his being causing him to run on Necropower.  He had two distinct opposite personalities associated with each version, ect... I think I know what Bob did to E Bob maybe...
Anyway, He actually killed off part of himself and in doing so created the spirit of everything he shed. I think this is what all immortals do when they are downgraded from grace to mantle, break off a piece that makes up an identity and the rest is everything left over, break it down some more and we have a bunch of aspects of the same being spread across reality. Bob just did it on a smaller level with his own identity, Not sure if it actually 'died' then or just became it's own thing..

[DonBugen]

When he had a chance to choose between Cowl and Harry, he chose Harry.

I’ve been puzzling over this for a little bit, and I don’t think that Bob really chose Harry in DB.  He’s a spirit of intellect, without a free will of his own, and I doubt that Bob could assert his own preference to override the hard-coded rules that define his allegiance any more than I can flap my arms and fly.  Rather, I suspect that this has something to do with the power of Names, and the fact that Dresden was the one who gave Bob a name.  Bob doesn’t react at all until Harry calls him by name and states that he was the one to give him one.

I doubt that much of Bob’s personality is based off of Justin.  Harry probably did see the skull at work, though likely never face-to-face; I don’t see Justin being the kind of dad who shares his illegal source of boundless knowledge with his apprentice kids, especially when he plans to make them his enthralled servants later.  Harry probably just knew that it had a ton of knowledge and would be hugely valuable to a kid who needed to make it on his own.  Butters, on the other hand, got to sit and question Bob at length and worked with him and Thomas for a better portion of a day – a lot of time for his personality to impress upon Butters. 

Besides, Jim did say that Bob’s “annoying perv” nature was specifically because Harry picked him up when he was a hormone-charged adolescent.  Other than being a know-it-all, those are most of his main personality traits. 

The big question is, how much of Bob’s personality when he was with Justin is a result of Justin’s expectations of him as a tool of Kemmler, and did the dark skull have any influence on leading Justin down the left-hand path?

[Cozarkian]

I envision Harry digging through the ashes looking for Elaine's body, finding a skull, touching it, and discovering it talks.

If he never saw Justin speaking with the skull, it's personality but would be almost entirely the imprint of Harry's teenage subconscious.

[Griffyn612]

The thing is, Bob's wording in Dead Beat is strange.  In regards to his knowledge of Kemmler, he said, editing out Harry's parts...

"I don't remember very much of it.  [I don't forget] unless I want to.  Or was compelled to.  You don't want to command me to remember.  Because knowledge is what I am.  Losing my knowledge of what I new of Kemmler took away a... a big piece of my existence.  Like if someone had cut off your arm.  What's left of what I know of Kemmler is close to the missing pieces."

To me, it sounds like he had already cut off Evil Bob at some previous occasion.  I know Bob says in Ghost Story that Evil Bob is the part he cut off because of Harry's orders in Dead Beat, but it also sounds like there could have been more out there already.  Maybe I'm reading into it too much.

[jonas]

The thing is, Bob's wording in Dead Beat is strange.  In regards to his knowledge of Kemmler, he said, editing out Harry's parts...

To me, it sounds like he had already cut off Evil Bob at some previous occasion.  I know Bob says in Ghost Story that Evil Bob is the part he cut off because of Harry's orders in Dead Beat, but it also sounds like there could have been more out there already.  Maybe I'm reading into it too much.

I don't think so, by my own idea, I figured 'close to those pieces', when he accessed those pieces is when he gave EBob a way in. I don't think he was 'inside' him at that point at all.

[Griffyn612]

I don't think so, by my own idea, I figured 'close to those pieces', when he accessed those pieces is when he gave EBob a way in. I don't think he was 'inside' him at that point at all.

Maybe it's just the phrasing, where he combines "losing" the knowledge and "cutting off" to describe a previous instance. 

Either way, he and Harry should have discussed the ramifications of the order. 

[Quantus]

I generally took that scene (combined with GS) to indicate that Bob had carved off a chunk of himself on two separate occasions: once at the end of DB (per bob in GS) and once in the window of time between Kemmler and Harry owing the Skull. 

I Suppose it's possible that when Bob was ordered to "remember" he somehow Summoned the originally severed pie, but that means that either Bob summoned his other half in order to "remember" or else EvilBob was already close enough to detect the opportunity.  The former doesnt fit with the way Bob described what was happening or what he was being ordered to "remember", and the latter seems generally unlikely but cant be disproven.   


||My current theory||

When Justin got Bob (hereafter "proto-Bob") he too was attacked by a creature whose had been "twisted" by kemmler and had to Order the SoI to Forget some and suppress other Knowledge/Memories of his time with Kemmler, just as Harry did. The only difference is that Justin actually cared about saving the secret arcane lore contained in the SoI, so his order didnt go as far as Harry's did and left the "pieces" that harry woke up in DB. 


Thus we have:
 Proto-Bob  = All the Bob that Kemmler Had
 Bob           = All the Bob that Kemmler had minus the most homicidal parts, with the remaining lesser homicidal parts suppressed.
 Necro-Bob  = Bob plus the Suppressed Bits woken up
 Evil-Bob     = Necro-Bob Minus Bob, aka just the suppressed bits.


This means that there is likely a 3rd independent chunk of Bob running around out there.  Unless Evil-bob somehow combined with the chunk previously severed, as I think Jonas was theorizing.