Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

[Mr. Death]

Mr. Death:  You hadn't replied to my assertion before that on Harry's death, a freed Bonnie could also give testimony on the pure facts of what had occurred.  She knows everything that Harry knows, would be freed upon his death, and Mab is aware of her.  Even though she doesn't understand the context of the knowledge she has ("Pancakes are inanimate!!") she always could report accurately all the sounds of the past fifteen minutes, for example.

Sorry, I hadn't replied to it because I hadn't seen it. I've been kind of all over the place the last few days, so every time I come back to this thread, there's two or three new pages.

That said, remember that Lasciel and Nicodemus know about Bonnie. If Harry dies right then and there, they're going to capture her for themselves. That's Lasciel's stated intent in Hades, remember.

Furthermore, I want to also mention that there's other evidence that there would be witnesses to this exchange.  The reason Harry closes the gate back to Marcone's vault right before he tackles the Gate of Ice is because he's fairly certain that Nicodemus would try some sort of underhanded assault deep in Hades' realm, where Mab was unlikely to have witnesses.  Look at this in the reverse:  If Harry was in more danger because there would not be witnesses here, then there must be a measure of safety in the real world because there could be witnesses.  And again, I don't think that Nicodemus would be so reckless to jeopardize his entire enterprise on the chance that Mab doesn't have some way of verifying whether or not he's being treacherous, just to kill Harry a day ahead of time.  If this job is important enough to kill Deidre for, it's important enough to not make stupid risks for personal vengeance.

A measure of safety, yes. This doesn't confirm that Mab has accurate spies everywhere that will give her such a detailed account of the whole chase that she'll completely reject Nicodemus's version of events.

Recall, for instance, the very limited "recreation" she's able to show Harry in Small Favor of the assault on Marcone's bolthole.

[huangjimmy108]

Wow, so a lot about whether or not Nicodemus can lie.  Which obviously he can; he's a mortal.  It's slightly questionable whether Anduriel can lie or not, but Nicodemus isn't held back by the limitations.  The thing is, though, Nick probably just doesn't see the point in lying much; he's not ashamed of what he does, and he's very matter-of-fact about his actions.  He's the hero of his own story.  But he will certainly deceive others, and certainly lies throughout Skin Game.  Huangjimmy's already pointed out some of the best points, so I don't really need to do too much here.

Jimmy - I agree with pretty much everything on your second response to me (the one about profitability) except for this last bit.At the point where Karrin appears with Fid, Harry and Butters have basically given up on being able to escape Nicodemus' trap and have decided to fight them.  Everyone's preparing for a fight, and the second Dresden strikes, they all die.  If Karrin doesn't show up with Fid, then Nick gets personal revenge and Mab is obligated to replace him with a servant of equal competence - which she has.  Technically, Mab could offer Lea's services, and I think that Lea would have a pretty easy chance of getting through the gate of ice.


Also, I’ve been thinking more about the ‘pro forma quid pro quo’, and I don’t believe that it signifies that both Harry and Nicodemus broke the pact, and so therefore they cancel each other out.  Yes, quid pro quo does signify that one thing is being exchanged for another, but pro forma is a statement that something is done as a matter of form, or as an estimate. 

When the two latin phrases are put together and viewed in the context of the conversation, it seems that what Harry calls ‘pro-forma quid pro quo’ is the fiction that each of them are hiding behind.  Nicodemus wouldn’t really have betrayed Harry unless he killed him, and Harry wouldn’t really have betrayed Nicodemus unless he had actually ushered him off to Michael’s house in safety.  It is an exchange of an estimate of what would happen.  Otherwise, there's no need for 'pro forma' in the sentence if it just means 'quid pro quo'.

Besides, it’s Latin.  As Harry is far from an expert in Latin (dang correspondence course!) I wouldn’t take anything that he says in it as unassailable fact and interpret the scene from it.  Unless he also makes lately and needs him a new laundress as well.


On a slightly different topic, I’ve been thinking of the Genoskwa’s actions during this fight.  Nicodemus commands Gen to kill Harry and to make it hurt.  And Gen… just doesn’t take the opportunity.  Yes, it can be argued that maybe Gen was just enjoying torturing Harry too much.  But he’s made it perfectly clear that he would enjoy nothing more but killing him.  Why doesn’t Gen kill Harry when ordered to?

It’s clear that whatever thing that Nicodemus is attempting to achieve, that this heist is deadly critical to achieving that goal.  He would not sacrifice his daughter, the person that he loves and trusts more than anything in the world, in order to just get a new supernatural artifact that he just found out about.  If it’s critical enough to kill Deidre over, then I don’t think that there’s a chance – not a chance in hell – that Nicodemus would knowingly do anything that would rob him of the person he needs to get through the gate of ice.

Which means that Nicodemus wouldn’t put anything up to chance.  I don’t believe that he would chance killing Dresden unless it was completely obvious that he had betrayed him, simply because he doesn’t know for sure if the Queen of Tricksey Faeries has eyes on the situation or not.  That’s not something that Nicodemus would risk on a job so critical.  And by the same token, I don’t believe that he would give the command for the Genoskwa to kill Dresden unless he was absolutely certain that he would not.  Because if there’s any ambiguity about Dresden’s death, then the job is off.

So when the Genoskwa does not kill Harry, even though given ample time to and commanded to do so, this strikes me as very conspicuous.

I think it was more than likely that Nicodemus had a conversation with all of his hidden Denarians – that due to the circumstance of the bargain with Mab, none of them were allowed to kill him.  Period.  That makes the most sense; if Dresden is to die, Nicodemus would want to be in control so that he could not accidently lose the retainer from Winter that he was owed.

Sorry, I miss this one.

Nicodemus wouldn’t really have betrayed Harry unless he killed him, and Harry wouldn’t really have betrayed Nicodemus

The later part of the sentence is blatantly false. Both Harry and Nick knew that Harry truly intend to help Butters, sabotaging Nick's attempt in the process whether Harry really intended to do so or not.

The equation is not balance. The scales are not satisfied.

It should be Nick truly intend to kill Harry and Harry truly inted to help Butters. Harry succeed, while Nick fail. Which is another inbalance that must be covered. Someone has to pay the price for this inbalance.

It should have been Butters. He should have died to pay for the imbalance. Instead, That someone is Murphy and Michael.

About gen. Gen does not directly crush Harry's head, because Nick has fid on his throat at the time. If Gen crush Harry's head, Murphy will be fully justify to smite Nick down. She'll only be too happy to cut his head off. Nick need to disarm Murphy first before anything else. It is sheer personal safety.

After he succeeded in disarming Murphy and breaking fid, Harry is again saved from head crushing because Nick is gloating.

After that Harry is saved by Michael.

This is a more believable reason compare to Nicodemous instructing his people not to kill Harry because Harry is so irreplaceable.

Here is the thing. It is obvious to Nick that Harry is going to betray him. So the idea that Nick won't risk killing Harry unless Nick is certain about his betrayal is again another false assertion. He is already certain, he only need a pretext, an excuse.

Again, Harry is not the only person who can help Nick pass the gate of ice. There are at least a few hundreds if not a few thoudsands winter sidhe who can help Nick pass the gate of ice and Mab can send one of them to Nick's in about 15 minutes to replace Harry. Before the operation actually starts and they attack Marcone's bank, killing Harry is no issue. Between attacking Marcone's bank and the gate of ice, Harry is relatively safe, because changing people at this point will be bad for the operation. After the gate of ice, Harry is again under threat. A pretext is all that Nicodemous requires.

[Arjan]

Well, that'll do it.

That was when she was still in his head. Molly freed her.

[DonBugen]

That said, remember that Lasciel and Nicodemus know about Bonnie. If Harry dies right then and there, they're going to capture her for themselves. That's Lasciel's stated intent in Hades, remember.

Hm, that's right.  And they'd catch her, too, unless Mab were to literally appear at Harry's death.  Which may be possible...  While we don't know for certain where Mab is between the meeting with Kringle and Harry's confrontation with her at the BFS, I have a hunch that she stays in Chicago.  Mostly due to the fact that the weather remains icky.  If she's in Chicago, that would mean that Harry's mantle would return to Mab, not Molly, on Harry's death, which would tell her that her knight is no more.

A measure of safety, yes. This doesn't confirm that Mab has accurate spies everywhere that will give her such a detailed account of the whole chase that she'll completely reject Nicodemus's version of events.

I hear what you say about Mab's recreation of the scene in Small Favor.  Correct me if I'm wrong - that was what Mab was able to do with no forewarning, without any initial invested means of knowing that the movement of these Denarians would be important to her.  To me, that doesn't say "wow, she's limited."  Imagine what she could do if she was prepared.

No, I mean really, imagine.  She DOES have this band of elite spies and assassins at her beck and call, who can witness events play out through reflective surfaces.  And in the icy, sleety environment, there's plenty of reflective surfaces.  Heck, Harry even has some on him, one of which sits on his earlobe.  Nick is holding another for most of the confrontation.

I mean, she's been putting together this plan for ages.  She's spending the weekend making sure everything goes to plan.  Is it really improbable that she wouldn't task a Fetch with watching Harry's back, and alerting her when things got dicey?  I mean, I know that Harry fought some Fetches a while back, but he's all winter and stuff now.

Besides, Harry's words to Nicodemus when he closes the gate talk about Mab watching directly.  They are fighting in Mab's element.

I've given you evidence that Mab may be watching herself, and provided a good number of other witnesses who could have done the job.  (and yes, the Cobbs Harry met at Shoegasm wouldn't have been watching, but that was mostly just an example that not all little folk have heads as full of corn silk as the Major General and his colonels).  But at the end of the day, the question remains:  even if Nicodemus only has a reasonable chance that Mab might not be watching closely, would he really risk killing Dresden if it wasn't 100% obvious and clear that Harry had betrayed him?  Especially on a job that is so important, he is willing to sacrifice his daughter over?

Nicodemus wouldn’t really have betrayed Harry unless he killed him, and Harry wouldn’t really have betrayed Nicodemus

The later part of the sentence is blatantly false. Both Harry and Nick knew that Harry truly intend to help Butters, sabotaging Nick's attempt in the process whether Harry really intended to do so or not.

The equation is not balance. The scales are not satisfied.

It should be Nick truly intend to kill Harry and Harry truly inted to help Butters. Harry succeed, while Nick fail. Which is another inbalance that must be covered. Someone has to pay the price for this inbalance.

Again, please note my earlier arguments over intent vs. deed, or as you put it, intent vs. what is actually done.  We agreed that intent does not signify a betrayal, as you might remember.  What matters is if Harry actually betrays Nicodemus.  That means that what matters in the beginning is whether Dresden actually ushers Butters off to safety or not.  After Nicodemus gives the order to Harry to kill Butters, what matters is if Harry actually kills Butters or not.  And at this scene, everything is not played out, so Harry has not yet for certain saved Butters.  Harry has not succeeded where Nicodemus has failed.

It does not matter a bit what he intends to do, but what he actually does.  Otherwise, Nick could have just killed Harry as he ran toward the Carpenters' house in the beginning.  Instead, Nicodemus shows up, acts as if Harry was obviously pursuing Butters, and then makes him choose between allowing Butters' death or fighting them and betraying Mab.

Nicodemus wants to make sure Dresden is clearly breaking the truce.

About gen. Gen does not directly crush Harry's head, because Nick has fid on his throat at the time. If Gen crush Harry's head, Murphy will be fully justify to smite Nick down. She'll only be too happy to cut his head off. Nick need to disarm Murphy first before anything else. It is sheer personal safety.

After he succeeded in disarming Murphy and breaking fid, Harry is again saved from head crushing because Nick is gloating.

After that Harry is saved by Michael.

...  you DO realize that you're completely arguing in favor of my point, yet again?

I mean, you just stated that when Nicodemus told the Genoskwa to kill Harry, that he wasn't actually trying to have Harry killed, because he would lose the piece of leverage he was using.  This literally means that you are saying that this was all a ploy in order to get Karrin to expose the sword.  It literally means that you are agreeing with Nicodemus.

You have just provided a logical, well-thought-out reason that Nicodemus was being accurate when he said that this was a ploy.

And furthermore, you provided extra evidence that I hadn't even thought of.  If Karrin is completely justified in killing Nicodemus if he has the Genoskwa killed, there's only one reason for that to be the case.  It would mean that Nicodemus had taken an action which contradicted his submission and relinquishment of the coin.  This would imply that Nicodemus did not truly "relinquish his claim on the blood of the innocent."  Because that would mean in this case that Harry was innocent and Nicodemus truly did not have a right to his blood under the agreement.

I mean, come on.  Don't you see this?  At all?  You just literally agreed to me.  I've shown several times in this thread that I'm not allergic to admitting when I'm wrong and adjusting my beliefs based off of it - after all, I'm not arguing to Mr. Death anymore that Murphy must be under some evil influence.  Come on.

Second...  Harry is safe from Genoskwa after the sword breaks, because... what, Nicodemus is gloating?  I don't understand your reasoning there.  I mean, sure, the Genoskwa probably doesn't have friends with Internet access, so he probably hasn't read that Evil Overlord list, either.  But come on.  The Genoskwa is a vicious, brutal, carnal predator.  When he decides to kill something, he kills it.  He doesn't just hang there and wait so that Harry can feel emotional pain.

If Nicodemus' life being in danger was holding him back before, it sure isn't now.  Pretty sure that Gen would then drink his blood like a bottle of pop.

This is a more believable reason compare to Nicodemous instructing his people not to kill Harry because Harry is so irreplaceable.

That wasn't quite my argument.  Harry is totally replaceable if Mab offers another Winter Sidhe.  Harry's agility compared to the grace of a sidhe is like comparing a toddler to a housecat.  The big question is, will Mab replace Harry if Nicodemus is betraying their agreement?

Again, intentions don't matter.  What matters is what actually happens.

Here is the thing. It is obvious to Nick that Harry is going to betray him. So the idea that Nick won't risk killing Harry unless Nick is certain about his betrayal is again another false assertion. He is already certain, he only need a pretext, an excuse.

And again, this is another strawman, and you know why.  It is Mab's opinion, not Nicodemus', that matters.  You cannot make the same argument if it is said "So the idea that Nick won't risk killing Harry unless Nick is certain that Mab would see Harry's act as betrayal is again another false assertion."  Mab doesn't just dole out replacements if Nicodemus felt justified in killing Dresden; she would only do so if Harry actually had broken Mab's word.

[Mira]

I mean, you just stated that when Nicodemus told the Genoskwa to kill Harry, that he wasn't actually trying to have Harry killed, because he would lose the piece of leverage he was using.  This literally means that you are saying that this was all a ploy in order to get Karrin to expose the sword.  It literally means that you are agreeing with Nicodemus.

You have just provided a logical, well-thought-out reason that Nicodemus was being accurate when he said that this was a ploy.

Which is my argument...  It is just silly to assume that just because Nic has shown himself as a liar, to assume he is lying all of the time... 

[jonas]

I can't believe that we are arguing about Nicodemous's credibility. That is why I call this lunacy. It is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that Nick can lie and he did lie, a freaking lot, not all the time but the next best thing to it.

Then why is proving it so hard?

"I know the value of your words and you know the value of mine". This phrase first used by shiro is proof enough. Nick is a lying cheating bastard, because JB design him as a complete nemesis to Michael's character. Arguing about this is pointless.

Very character opinion driven though. I'd point out as Nic is also one of those few 2k year olds who know what's actually happening, knows about N and how the world actually works on metaphysical level, their's a whole heck of a lot of reasons for him not to bust outright lies, knowing full well why it became part of the balance for instance as a previously unbalanced force without a punisher or redeemer. Satan, the original accuser/nemesis role and how he used sin to claim the parts that had no balance in reality, no one to punish, based off of the cabbalistic seraphim and our level of reality and it's polar opposite spiritus mundus in previous satan, now his bride Lilith/Nemesis/Lachesis,ect, ect. Now Magic has no elemental punisher for crime

(click to show/hide)

Until Harry becomes that in the end, giving black magic balance in reality and taking away N's current foothold, ect, ect.

All I want to say is this. Had Nicodemous say something and he is the only sorce of information and with the absence of any other contrary proof, taking his words as truth is reasonable. No matter how you put it, the guy is still a character in the story, and his words are still text evidence. When he say that Harry is afraid of power during book 5, I take that statement as truth just fine. Why? Because nothing is going against that statement and Harry even somewhat agrees which further support the statement.

But taking Nicodemous's words as credible evidence, when there is at least 3 other characters who's words and actions contradicts Nicodemous's statement and under the condition where these 3 character are all reputable characters, that is a choice only made by crazy lunatics.

As character witness's alone, sure.(haven't seen this happen fyi but thanks for calling me a lunatic and crazy and ect. WATCH the push, because shove is an easy extension) But just because they believe Nic to be a liar doesn't mean he did either. Take for face value that the knights have always had their own agenda(considering what else the nails are, I find this believable) and having that agenda has skewed the word of mouth knowledge of Nic and the fallen(as we know they lack much else written) then it becomes less of a concrete thing. You can take all the things said about Mab, and if you didn't know for a fact she couldn't lie, she'd be quite the liar to you. She's deceptive, two faced, manipulative, ect.

[Mr. Death]

Hm, that's right.  And they'd catch her, too, unless Mab were to literally appear at Harry's death.  Which may be possible...  While we don't know for certain where Mab is between the meeting with Kringle and Harry's confrontation with her at the BFS, I have a hunch that she stays in Chicago.  Mostly due to the fact that the weather remains icky.  If she's in Chicago, that would mean that Harry's mantle would return to Mab, not Molly, on Harry's death, which would tell her that her knight is no more.

Granted, yeah, Mab's probably in Chicago. How quickly she could arrive without being summoned, we don't know. At the end of the book, Molly apparently has to cover the physical distance to arrive.

Even so, the earring she gave Harry is suppressing Bonnie. Even if Mab could get to her, she might not have been "conscious" because of it.

I hear what you say about Mab's recreation of the scene in Small Favor.  Correct me if I'm wrong - that was what Mab was able to do with no forewarning, without any initial invested means of knowing that the movement of these Denarians would be important to her.  To me, that doesn't say "wow, she's limited."  Imagine what she could do if she was prepared.

No, I mean really, imagine.  She DOES have this band of elite spies and assassins at her beck and call, who can witness events play out through reflective surfaces.  And in the icy, sleety environment, there's plenty of reflective surfaces.  Heck, Harry even has some on him, one of which sits on his earlobe.  Nick is holding another for most of the confrontation.

I mean, she's been putting together this plan for ages.  She's spending the weekend making sure everything goes to plan.  Is it really improbable that she wouldn't task a Fetch with watching Harry's back, and alerting her when things got dicey?  I mean, I know that Harry fought some Fetches a while back, but he's all winter and stuff now.

Besides, Harry's words to Nicodemus when he closes the gate talk about Mab watching directly.  They are fighting in Mab's element.

Here's the thing about Mab, though -- she doesn't want a Knight she has to keep tabs on and micromanage. Hell, that was Harry's threat -- that he'd become someone Mab had to micromanage. She seems to have picked Harry because of his ability to operate on his own and surprise her -- keeping a constant eye on him seems to go against that.

So yes, it's possible that Mab is watching everything. I don't think it likely, and I don't think it matters, because...

I've given you evidence that Mab may be watching herself, and provided a good number of other witnesses who could have done the job.  (and yes, the Cobbs Harry met at Shoegasm wouldn't have been watching, but that was mostly just an example that not all little folk have heads as full of corn silk as the Major General and his colonels).  But at the end of the day, the question remains:  even if Nicodemus only has a reasonable chance that Mab might not be watching closely, would he really risk killing Dresden if it wasn't 100% obvious and clear that Harry had betrayed him?  Especially on a job that is so important, he is willing to sacrifice his daughter over?

It is obvious and clear Harry had betrayed him. He gave Harry an order (to kill Butters) and Harry slaps him on the wrist. Everybody present knows what it looks like when Harry tries to kill something. Especially Nicodemus -- Harry's tried to kill him a few times. and that Forzare spell was clearly not cast with lethal intent.

But let's say Mab was watching everything closely. Let's say she even knew what Harry was trying to do.

Do you really think Mab is going to argue that the Winter Knight that she picked personally, who she pursued for near a decade, and who she proclaimed as hers to all of Faerie... is an incompetent incapable of killing a defenseless, fragile mortal like Butters?

[huangjimmy108]

Hm, that's right.  And they'd catch her, too, unless Mab were to literally appear at Harry's death.  Which may be possible...  While we don't know for certain where Mab is between the meeting with Kringle and Harry's confrontation with her at the BFS, I have a hunch that she stays in Chicago.  Mostly due to the fact that the weather remains icky.  If she's in Chicago, that would mean that Harry's mantle would return to Mab, not Molly, on Harry's death, which would tell her that her knight is no more.I hear what you say about Mab's recreation of the scene in Small Favor.  Correct me if I'm wrong - that was what Mab was able to do with no forewarning, without any initial invested means of knowing that the movement of these Denarians would be important to her.  To me, that doesn't say "wow, she's limited."  Imagine what she could do if she was prepared.

No, I mean really, imagine.  She DOES have this band of elite spies and assassins at her beck and call, who can witness events play out through reflective surfaces.  And in the icy, sleety environment, there's plenty of reflective surfaces.  Heck, Harry even has some on him, one of which sits on his earlobe.  Nick is holding another for most of the confrontation.

I mean, she's been putting together this plan for ages.  She's spending the weekend making sure everything goes to plan.  Is it really improbable that she wouldn't task a Fetch with watching Harry's back, and alerting her when things got dicey?  I mean, I know that Harry fought some Fetches a while back, but he's all winter and stuff now.

Besides, Harry's words to Nicodemus when he closes the gate talk about Mab watching directly.  They are fighting in Mab's element.

I've given you evidence that Mab may be watching herself, and provided a good number of other witnesses who could have done the job.  (and yes, the Cobbs Harry met at Shoegasm wouldn't have been watching, but that was mostly just an example that not all little folk have heads as full of corn silk as the Major General and his colonels).  But at the end of the day, the question remains:  even if Nicodemus only has a reasonable chance that Mab might not be watching closely, would he really risk killing Dresden if it wasn't 100% obvious and clear that Harry had betrayed him?  Especially on a job that is so important, he is willing to sacrifice his daughter over?
Again, please note my earlier arguments over intent vs. deed, or as you put it, intent vs. what is actually done.  We agreed that intent does not signify a betrayal, as you might remember.  What matters is if Harry actually betrays Nicodemus.  That means that what matters in the beginning is whether Dresden actually ushers Butters off to safety or not.  After Nicodemus gives the order to Harry to kill Butters, what matters is if Harry actually kills Butters or not.  And at this scene, everything is not played out, so Harry has not yet for certain saved Butters.  Harry has not succeeded where Nicodemus has failed.

It does not matter a bit what he intends to do, but what he actually does.  Otherwise, Nick could have just killed Harry as he ran toward the Carpenters' house in the beginning.  Instead, Nicodemus shows up, acts as if Harry was obviously pursuing Butters, and then makes him choose between allowing Butters' death or fighting them and betraying Mab.

Nicodemus wants to make sure Dresden is clearly breaking the truce.
...  you DO realize that you're completely arguing in favor of my point, yet again?

I mean, you just stated that when Nicodemus told the Genoskwa to kill Harry, that he wasn't actually trying to have Harry killed, because he would lose the piece of leverage he was using.  This literally means that you are saying that this was all a ploy in order to get Karrin to expose the sword.  It literally means that you are agreeing with Nicodemus.

You have just provided a logical, well-thought-out reason that Nicodemus was being accurate when he said that this was a ploy.

And furthermore, you provided extra evidence that I hadn't even thought of.  If Karrin is completely justified in killing Nicodemus if he has the Genoskwa killed, there's only one reason for that to be the case.  It would mean that Nicodemus had taken an action which contradicted his submission and relinquishment of the coin.  This would imply that Nicodemus did not truly "relinquish his claim on the blood of the innocent."  Because that would mean in this case that Harry was innocent and Nicodemus truly did not have a right to his blood under the agreement.

I mean, come on.  Don't you see this?  At all?  You just literally agreed to me.  I've shown several times in this thread that I'm not allergic to admitting when I'm wrong and adjusting my beliefs based off of it - after all, I'm not arguing to Mr. Death anymore that Murphy must be under some evil influence.  Come on.

Second...  Harry is safe from Genoskwa after the sword breaks, because... what, Nicodemus is gloating?  I don't understand your reasoning there.  I mean, sure, the Genoskwa probably doesn't have friends with Internet access, so he probably hasn't read that Evil Overlord list, either.  But come on.  The Genoskwa is a vicious, brutal, carnal predator.  When he decides to kill something, he kills it.  He doesn't just hang there and wait so that Harry can feel emotional pain.

If Nicodemus' life being in danger was holding him back before, it sure isn't now.  Pretty sure that Gen would then drink his blood like a bottle of pop.
That wasn't quite my argument.  Harry is totally replaceable if Mab offers another Winter Sidhe.  Harry's agility compared to the grace of a sidhe is like comparing a toddler to a housecat.  The big question is, will Mab replace Harry if Nicodemus is betraying their agreement?

Again, intentions don't matter.  What matters is what actually happens.
And again, this is another strawman, and you know why.  It is Mab's opinion, not Nicodemus', that matters.  You cannot make the same argument if it is said "So the idea that Nick won't risk killing Harry unless Nick is certain that Mab would see Harry's act as betrayal is again another false assertion."  Mab doesn't just dole out replacements if Nicodemus felt justified in killing Dresden; she would only do so if Harry actually had broken Mab's word.

Let me ask you this: Did Butters die?

This the matter. The crux of the matter is not whether or not Harry usher Butters to safety. The order is not "Secure the mortal doctor". THe order is "End him". THe question is did Butters die or not. And don't mention it is not yet certain, because it is certain. Once Butters pass the fence into Michael's home, it is over and finalize If at that point Butters did not die, it means Harry has fail. It is the same as Harry coming back to Chicago from demonreach island after he make a deal with eldest gruf in book 10. Once Harry step into Chicago, the game is ended and Eldest gruf fail the job. There is no uncertainty about it. Harry is task to end Butters and he fail, breaking Mab's given word in the process.

If intent does not matter, Butters will have to die before the equation is balance. The final result matters, no excuses. Nick can't kill Harry, but Harry has to end Butters by all cost.

Balance is what drives the fae, and no, just because Mab's perception that matters, she can't just twist things and argue her way out of everything. There is a law governing this. If she is not bound, nobody in their right mind would want to make deals with her. She can twist everything and thereby no credibility. Do you think Mab is a freaking dishonorable Denarians?

Again I mention this. If Butters truly die, this "Intent" argument of yours will be more plausible. But since Butters did not die, this excuse is not applicable.


As for Nick gloating. Well, he is human in the end. He has just succeeded in destroying one of the holy sword. It is only reasonable that he'll take some time to celebrate. Capable as Nick is, there is still some limit. He is not perfect. Like I said, even Mab, the absolute Queen, has her emotional moments, like not killing Maeve with her own hands for example. If even Mab can show some emotional response, so does Nick. It is an understandable lapse of judgement on Nick's part. a small lapse at that, and would not have mattered at all if not for Michael and Uriel's intervention.

He could have killed Harry at any time, delaying it for a few minutes to gloat does not effect anything. He could also refuse Michael's offer, it is his own fault being greedy and lose everything. Michael's home is neutral territory, once Harry cross the threshold, like Butters he escape the crisis. The matter is settled and Nick can't cry fowl about this matter anymore.

[huangjimmy108]

Then why is proving it so hard? Very character opinion driven though. I'd point out as Nic is also one of those few 2k year olds who know what's actually happening, knows about N and how the world actually works on metaphysical level, their's a whole heck of a lot of reasons for him not to bust outright lies, knowing full well why it became part of the balance for instance as a previously unbalanced force without a punisher or redeemer. Satan, the original accuser/nemesis role and how he used sin to claim the parts that had no balance in reality, no one to punish, based off of the cabbalistic seraphim and our level of reality and it's polar opposite spiritus mundus in previous satan, now his bride Lilith/Nemesis/Lachesis,ect, ect. Now Magic has no elemental punisher for crime

(click to show/hide)

Until Harry becomes that in the end, giving black magic balance in reality and taking away N's current foothold, ect, ect.

As character witness's alone, sure.(haven't seen this happen fyi but thanks for calling me a lunatic and crazy and ect. WATCH the push, because shove is an easy extension) But just because they believe Nic to be a liar doesn't mean he did either. Take for face value that the knights have always had their own agenda(considering what else the nails are, I find this believable) and having that agenda has skewed the word of mouth knowledge of Nic and the fallen(as we know they lack much else written) then it becomes less of a concrete thing. You can take all the things said about Mab, and if you didn't know for a fact she couldn't lie, she'd be quite the liar to you. She's deceptive, two faced, manipulative, ect.

If it is so easy to catch a devil in a lie, the devil won't be the devil, unless you are TWG.

The fact that it is so hard to prove the lie is testament to Nick's skill, not his credibility.

How do I know? Because WoJ say that Nick is Michael nemesis in character.

We has to start with assuming that Nick is lying and go from there, not the other way around.

[jonas]

If it is so easy to catch a devil in a lie, the devil won't be the devil, unless you are TWG.

The fact that it is so hard to prove the lie is testament to Nick's skill, not his credibility.

How do I know? Because WoJ say that Nick is Michael nemesis in character.

We has to start with assuming that Nick is lying and go from there, not the other way around.

We also has to be nice to our fellows here and none of this is conclusive Yellow Jim of the 108 blessings. Your taking an opinion and because the idea opposed to it is so repugnant, slathering it in ego. Please don't.

[huangjimmy108]

We also has to be nice to our fellows here and none of this is conclusive Yellow Jim of the 108 blessings. Your taking an opinion and because the idea opposed to it is so repugnant, slathering it in ego. Please don't.

Your skin is too thin.

Yes, if you want to nit pick about it, you can focus on my "name calling", and I admit I am a bit carried away there
This however does not avoid my argument. It is inconceivable to me that someone would put efford to argue in favor of Nicodemous's credibility.

[jonas]

Your skin is too thin.

Yes, if you want to nit pick about it, you can focus on my "name calling", and I admit I am a bit carried away there
This however does not avoid my argument. It is inconceivable to me that someone would put efford to argue in favor of Nicodemous's credibility.

My existence devoids your argument, here I am doing just that thank you greatly. So it was void before you ever uttered it as I was already here championing it. An your words are too Harsh considering good sir. I have my leather glove it hand...

[Arjan]

Your skin is too thin.

Yes, if you want to nit pick about it, you can focus on my "name calling", and I admit I am a bit carried away there
This however does not avoid my argument. It is inconceivable to me that someone would put efford to argue in favor of Nicodemous's credibility.

Denarian! 

[Blaze]

Please remember to make your points by referencing sources; do not disparage other posters or their views. 

Use I/me statements, not You/Your statements.   (This concept serves beyond this forum, folks.)

Review the Forum Policies especially the Forum Rules and Precepts. and the Book of Don't.

~Blaze, as Mod

[Mira]

Not so.  Simply getting his agreement to talk couldn't be considered as successful of a resolution as killing him; dead men don't speak, after all.  It's possible that Dresden could have convinced Nicodemus to either let him cast his sleep spell on Butters to make him unconscious for the duration of the heist, or to take him prisoner surrounded by Nick's goon squad, but I doubt he would accept those as an alternate plan.  Harry didn't seem to think that it was worth trying.

No, the point is, who was Butters going to tell?  Marcone?   Well, Murphy is a lot closer and on speaking terms with Marcone where as Butters really isn't.. Actually the fact that she has worked with and for Marcone in the past, Murphy would have been more likely than Butters to reveal Nic's plans, yet she was allowed to be part of team Harry. So no, there was no real reason for Butters to die...  By ordering it he was pushing to see if Harry would blindly follow Mab's orders to him to cooperate with him...  Knowing before hand that killing Butters was a non-issue for Harry, he pressed it with the added theatrics of Geno about to crush his skull to insight Murphy to attack using the Sword which he knew she'd misuse and get it broke, then he'd take her out, and leave Harry isolated with no balancing power to his own crew... Like I said he didn't anticipate Michael/Uriel..