((OK – I started writing when I saw HuangJimmy’s reply to me, and haven’t really seen anything else. I’ll respond to others when I can. But I mean, this sort of applies to everyone))
HuangJimmy: I’m afraid again that I might be being a bit rude or pushing too far. Your responses are getting a bit close to ad hominem. Please, let me know; if I’m being rude or offensive at all, or if you feel like I’m not listening to you, just tell me and I’ll bow out. This kind of debate and discussion is
not fun if feelings get hurt or if we get rude to each other.
With that being said, I’m a bit confused by your post. I don’t know
why, for example, my argument only has weight if Butters died because you didn’t really elaborate. I don’t know
why you don’t believe that the time limit of Nicodemus’ command doesn’t last until Butters breaks contact with Harry, because you haven’t said it. And everything you’re saying now about character POV and four witnesses was originally in a response to
Mira, not me, and my post was a minute and thirty seconds
after you wrote to Mira. Which is why I don’t appreciate you calling my theory lunacy when it’s clearly written without having first seen your argument.
With that being said, I think that there’s clearly a bit of misunderstanding on what I’m actually arguing. I’ve been doing a lot of countering other people’s arguments, rather than stating clearly what I believe to be the case. So that’s what I’m going to do here: state clearly
why I believe that Harry did not break the agreement at this point. And if you have any points of disagreement, you can respond directly to them and give your counter-evidence. And maybe then we can finally put this to bed so that I don’t have to keep defending this one tiny tangent, which supports my theory that Karrin actually could have become a knight at this point. Because remember, this thread’s all about Karrin.
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OK. So, point-by-point, I’m going to take this through the steps of logic.
I just ask that you read with an open mind and try to understand what I’m arguing for here. Follow along…
1. There is a game going on between Nicodemus and Harry in regards to the truce between them. If Nicodemus can get Harry to break the truce first, Nick gets to kill Harry without consequence and gets a replacement Winter Knight to get through the Gate of Ice. If Harry can get Nicodemus to break the truce first, Mab no longer owes Nicodemus a Winter Knight for this task and Harry is free. If neither can get the other to break the truce, then presumably they go to the end and duke it out in Chicago.
2. Nicodemus knows that Harry doesn’t intend to help Nick get his goal, and Harry knows that Nicodemus will double-cross them. They both know that the other is only going through the motions.
3. Considering that everyone is trying to get the other to betray the other, the best way to get one player to betray the other is to either block them into a logical corner or to provoke them into an unthinking emotional response.
4. It is not enough for an action to just
seem like it is a betrayal of trust; it must black-and-white
be so. The best evidence for this is found at the first major climax of Skin Game: despite having completely thrown the death of his daughter in his face and goading him into a murderous rage, despite Nicodemus telling the Genoskwa to kill him, despite being 100% sure that Nicodemus had broken the pact, Harry still makes sure that he lets Nicodemus attack first.
I had two possible responses to his first attack in mind, and they had to be responses, not assaults of my own. When all this was over, I wanted there to be absolutely no question in Mab’s mind that he had turned on me, not the other way around.
5. The expressed words in agreements and commands matter a great deal. Mab demonstrates this in the very beginning by showing how
she is double-crossing Nicodemus. She intends to adhere to the letter of the agreement, but is using a loophole in wording in order to allow her knight the opportunity to double-cross.
I closed my eyes and ran back through her words in my head. “Your precise instructions,” I said slowly, “were to go with Nicodemus and help him until such time as he completed his objective.” “Indeed,” Mab said. “Which he stated was to remove the contents of a vault.” She leaned down, took a fistful of shirt in her hand, and pulled me back to my feet as easily as she might heft a chihuahua. “I never said what you would do after.”
6. Nicodemus knows all this as well and plays the game much the same. The evidence to this is Nicodemus’ entrance in front of the Carpenter house. If there was any gray to the situation, he could have called Harry’s attack of Binder’s chaps, or Harry’s mostly dragging Butters to safety, treason, and killed him outright . Instead, he stands with a sword ready to kill, with the Genoskwa flanking Dresden, and acts as if Dresden was helping him all along as he sticks Harry in the logical trap of having to allow Butters to die to preserve the truce.
“Ah, Dresden,” Nicodemus purred. “You caught him. And in the nick of time.” I set Butters down warily and kept him close to my side. The little guy didn’t move or speak, though I could feel him shuddering with sudden intelligent terror.
7. Nicodemus’ expressed
goal is that Butters dies. His reasoning for it, which ties it to Harry’s obligation to give aid to Nick in his operation, is that Butters poses a security risk. These things by themselves do not yet obligate Harry to do the deed himself, but it
does obligate Harry to not prevent it from happening and to provide what aid Nicodemus may require. This is the first trap.
“Don’t be absurd,” Nicodemus said. “He’s heard entirely too much, and my files on him say that he’s associated with Marcone’s Chicago Alliance. Only an idiot wouldn’t recognize a potentially lethal security leak.” He tilted his head to one side. “He dies.”
8. At this point, Harry has determined that he and Butters have no choice but to break the contract, fight, and likely die. However, before they can actually move on this action, Karrin steps in with her ‘rocket launcher’ and threatens them, attempting to make Nicodemus reconsider his logical trap. She positions herself in close proximity to Nicodemus, draws the Sword, and attacks.
a. I acknowledge that Karrin’s actions in this create a problem in my argument – as Harry’s +1, it can be argued that her actions reflect back to Harry, and that Harry is ultimately responsible for Karrin’s act of violence and thus acted first. I will address this at the end. If you are willing to suspend disbelief for now and go along my supposition that Karrin’s actions are her own, I would appreciate it. If not, then I invite you to scroll down and then come back.
9. Karrin’s actions cannot be misconstrued as anything else – she states that she will attempt to kill Nicodemus, then swoops in and attempts to do so. She delivers the first blow, which Nicodemus defensively parries. If Karrin was under a similar oath of protection as Dresden was, this would mean that he was
legally free to kill her. Furthermore, Nicodemus
did say that he couldn’t guarantee Murphy’s safety. So basically, he can kill her on argument of self-defense, too. However, this does not put Nicodemus in an advantageous position against a knight wielding an on-mission Sword, so he must first turn the tables in his favor. The
evidence to the sword being on-mission is the glow of holy light pouring from it – something that it doesn’t do when, for example, Dresden was cleaning it at his apartment years ago.
10. Karrin and Nicodemus clash with swords locked together, and Nicodemus begins taunting Karrin and calling doubt to her calling, bringing out the doubt and fear she must have had.
11. This is when Nicodemus springs his second trap. Before, Harry simply had an obligation simply to aid Nicodemus if necessary and to not stand in the way of Butters’ demise. Both Harry and Gen stand on the sidelines of this conflict. Nicodemus now boxes Harry in by giving him a direct command to kill Butters, which Harry must now comply with because it is directly related to the expressed purpose of protecting their endeavor.
“Dresden,” Nicodemus said, “I’m giving you ample chance to call off your dog before I put her down.“ His eyes flicked to me. “End the little doctor and come back to headquarters. There’s no reason I should have to kill all three of you.”
12. With these three sentences, Nicodemus establishes two things: that Harry has a specific command, and that Harry has not yet broken the truce. Otherwise, there would be no talk of “return to headquarters” or “call off your dog.”
13. Harry intervenes at this point by grabbing Butters’ coat and appearing at first to be preparing to kill Butters. The “All right, damn it, sorry about this Butters; nothing personal” primarily serves to make it appear that Dresden is about to comply with Nick, so that the Genoskwa does not rush in and prevent Harry from unleashing force. Harry blasts Butters with force and moves him into the yard. This has the effect of protecting him from Nicodemus and the Genoskwa, who cannot attack into Michael’s yard.
14. This is the point that you are focusing on, in which you state that this act is direct defiance to Nicodemus’ order and thus breaks the truce. However, at this point nothing has yet been compromised; only the move of a chess piece. Harry does not attack Nick or Gen, and he does not impede his own ability to follow Nicodemus’ command. The direct consequence of his action is that Nicodemus and the Genoskwa now
cannot do the deed. However, this was off the table from the moment that Nicodemus gave the command.
a. It is true that Harry moving Butters certainly
looks like he is not going to comply. On the same token, however, Harry telling Butters “You take the big guy behind me” certainly
looks like they are defying Nick, yet the moment of betrayal would occur only when the attack happens. Talk is talk.
b. Nicodemus’ expressed intent is for Butters to die, at Harry’s hands, because of the security threat that he represents. Harry can still complete this task. He can literally point his gun and pull the trigger and then he and Nick are all hunky-dory, and if he can do that, then the agreement isn’t yet broken. If Butters breaks contact with Harry, though, then he has the opportunity to contact others, which would mean then that Harry disobeyed orders by allowing Butters to go free and endanger the mission.
c. Altogether, it’s
premature to say that the deal breaks here. I mean, it’s bound to break in the next few minutes unless something miraculous happens, but it doesn’t break here.
15. Here the action happens again. Nick retaliates on Karrin with a gun – which he can, of course, in self-defense because of her actions – and the Genoskwa starts bashing Harry around and squeezing his head.
a. It’s important to note that Harry shoots at the Genoskwa before the Genoskwa hits Harry. However, this is not the first time that Harry/Genoskwa violence has happened; Gen took Harry out of commission in the warehouse, requiring a doctor, and it was not a breach of the agreement with Mab. Comparatively, Harry’s gunshot is about the same strength as a needle prick to Gen and doesn’t threaten him or slow him down in the least. So much so that it’s not clear whether Harry even hits Gen or not.
16. At this point, the Genoskwa has Harry’s head in a vice,
completely preventing him from talking. This is important. When Nicodemus surrenders, the third trap is not Harry’s; it is Karrin’s. Nick surrenders to Karrin, which essentially means that Karrin
cannot attack Nicodemus and must accept his coin. However, Nicodemus still tells the Genoskwa to crush Harry’s skull.
a. The Genoskwa’s grip essentially
shuts Harry up. He can’t speak to Karrin one way or another, which is critical here, because Harry sees what Nick is doing and tries to warn Karrin.
I saw it coming, what Nicodemus was doing. I tried to warn her, but as I tried to speak, the Genoskwa rapped my head back against the minivan and nothing came out.
b. Nicodemus pays a price for using this strategy: he states that he relinquishes his claim on Butters’ blood. This essentially frees Dresden (albeit temporarily) of the responsibility of having to kill Butters. This strategy would last about as long as Nicodemus has to keep up the charade of submitting to the Knight. But it
does mean that Nicodemus
doubly cannot kill Dresden at this point and use it as an argument to Mab. Not only is Butters still in Dresden’s area of influence, but Nick has essentially just taken back his claim on his life.
“I surrender,” he said quietly, his voice mocking. He tilted his head slightly toward Butters. “And I relinquish my claim on the blood of the innocent. Have mercy on me, O Knight.”
17. And this is the point where everything can change. If Karrin calls Nick’s bluff and recovers the coin (and I don’t believe for a second that she doesn’t have a method of picking it up; if you spend the time gutting and preparing a rocket launcher to hold a katana, you’ve prepared to pick up the pocket change it generates) the entire situation flips. Nicodemus
can’t kill Dresden and get another Winter Knight at this point. He’s also unarmed, facing an on-mission Knight holding the Sword of Faith, who had just taken a
major leap of faith, without his coin and without his noose. He can call the coin to him in an instant, but he can’t so easily recover his sword or his noose. But he also can’t just let Karrin take the coin – Michael is inside, and I’m sure
he has a holy hankie with Anduriel’s name on it.
I don’t know what happens from here. The outcomes are extremely varied, but considering the liberal amount of deus ex machina that the knights attract, I don’t think that it’s certain that Dresden and Karrin leave this situation screwed.
So, to answer your questions…
What about four witnesses? Butters, Harry, Karrin, and Michael all believe Nick is going to kill them. OK, let’s look at the four of them. Butters is right – Nick
is going to kill him. Karrin as well – as soon as she started deliberately trying to kill Nicodemus, she basically made his hit list. Nicodemus is emotionally manipulating Karrin to believe that Dresden is going to die. Michael doesn’t know the situation; all he knows is that Harry has to play nice, and it sure
looks like Nicodemus is going to kill them all.
But Harry knows that it’s a breach of contract.
He proves it later. You remember Nicodemus’ pitiful response to Dresden’s accusation of going back on Mab’s truce? That’s incredibly significant, but not for the reason you think.
“The hell you have!” I spat. “You’ve just ordered your goon to kill me. You’ve broken your contract with Mab.”
Nicodemus shifted his gaze to me and looked amused. “That?” he said. “Goodness, Dresden, can you not recognize a ploy when you see one?”
“What ploy?” I said.
“I needed to put a little pressure on Miss Murphy,” he said. “But you were never in any actual danger.”
It doesn’t matter what lame excuse Nicodemus gives at this point. The point of the matter is that Harry states that the act of commanding the Genoskwa to kill him at this point, after Harry blasted Butters over the fence,
would be breaking his contract with Mab. And Nicodemus
doesn’t deny this. He weasels out instead by claiming he wasn’t breaking the contract because he didn’t actually put Dresden in danger.
None of this would be necessary if Nick had the right to kill Dresden at this point. Harry and Nicodemus both know that if he WAS to have put him in danger at this point, it would be considered a breach of contract. Otherwise, the conversation would be, “Dresden, you impeded the chase, ushered the suspect off to safety, and defied my direct command. You’re lucky that Carpenter bought your freedom and my forgiveness, because otherwise you’d be dead where you stand.”
What about Karrin being Dresden’s +1 and Harry being responsible for her actions? There are a number of instances in which Team Dresden and Team Nick clash and it isn’t considered a breach of contract. The Genoskwa smashes him up a bit in the warehouse and incapacitates him. Dresden smacks around Binder’s chaps in the chase. Heck, Michael attacks the Genoskwa first in the vault, but Harry’s still concerned about letting Nicodemus attack him first.
Karrin isn’t Harry’s vassal, and it’s acknowledged that he doesn’t have complete control over her, just as Nicodemus doesn’t have complete control over his own underlings. From the wording of Harry’s condition and Mab’s acceptance in the beginning, my guess is that Karrin is being treated not as under Harry’s responsibility, but as another associate who is tasked with keeping an eye out for Dresden. After all, Nicodemus does not extend his promise of protection under the truce to her. It could be implied that such a protection goes both ways.
But what if Harry dies? Mab can't know all of this detail. Harry has Bonnie living inside his head. Mab has already said that if Harry dies, Bonnie goes free. Bonnie knows everything that Harry knows. She might not know the context that it is or what it means, but she knows it. Considering how smart Bob is with his encyclopedia level of knowledge, I think that Bonnie could be relied upon to give testimony.
