Author Topic: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)  (Read 86609 times)

Offline Quantus

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #135 on: August 17, 2017, 12:16:07 PM »
Do we know that Aurora was Nemfected?  Has JB confirmed that?
I mean, I thought Titania confirmed it; what else would make her admit that her daughter had to die?  And we have WOJ that Sidhe of queen or Erlking level shouldnt be capable of /considering/ destroying the Natural Order. 

But to my knowledge there's been no direct WOJ on Aurora's Nemfection.  We actually have very few that reference Nemesis directly, at all. 
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #136 on: August 17, 2017, 01:37:34 PM »
Hey Mr. Death, I just want to start with saying this:  I’m totally cool if this is just a debate back and forth.  But I’m a little concerned that I might be hitting a nerve or be pushing too far.  No need to turn a friendly debate into an argument.  If I’m coming across as a jerk or something, let me know and I’ll walk away.  No big deal.
It's got less to do with you and more to do with Murphy -- she gets bashed a lot on these forums, and the bashers tend to make a lot of the same arguments you are, including that she was supposedly never supposed to have the Swords.

Anyways, to answer your questions:
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And, again: Is instant violence the kind of response that the rightful custodian of the Swords should have?  Depends.  Michael knew that Harry was the keeper of the sword of Faith in the same time period that he knew that he had touched a coin and was under a Fallen’s influence.  Yet Michael never stepped in and took the sword from him.  I think that Michael defers to the judgment of higher powers rather than his own, and I don’t think that the servants of TWG are as swayed by momentary actions as much as the heart and choice of the individual.  They also have a different perspective than the average mortal.
Lash's influence is a different beast than the Mantle's. Lash started subtly, and Harry caught on pretty quick. Lash also didn't push him to the kind of mindless, instant violence the Mantle is.

Also note that "violence against someone who doesn't deserve it" is literally the exact thing we see make the Sword vulnerable. Twice. Someone who is prone to take one of the exact actions that make the Sword vulnerable isn't the sort of person who should have the Sword, just like an incurable alcoholic probably shouldn't be managing a liquor store.

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Tell me what text in the books indicates Murphy is "manipulating" him. Tell me what text in the books indicates that Harry should have the Swords in that time and place.  Of course, you know that it never explicitly says that Harry should have had the swords in the text of the book.  The only one who can determine who *should* have the swords is TWG, and we only see his will as expressed through his servants.  Uriel can be trusted to reflect his master’s will; Michael, to a lesser extent – he is human, after all.  But it is to be noted that both Michael and Uriel both act with faith and trust in Harry, and so far that faith and trust has not been misplaced.  Harry’s actions, while out of character, are completely in character of someone under the power of the Winter Mantle.  The only thing out of character are the choices that Harry makes.
Yes, and he's acting out of character for a custodian of the Swords. Someone who's acting in such a way that would make the Swords vulnerable -- by, say, attacking his friends and allies -- shouldn't have the Swords.

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As for manipulating, I feel like you’re taking this in the “HAHAHA, I have you now!” kind of sneaky dark manipulation.  Murph knows that Harry wants and values her trust and loyalty.  She makes it very clear that she’s willing to give it IF Harry goes along with her requests.  She doesn’t sit down calmly with Harry and say, “Hey, I’m worried that you have these two things, can I maybe hang on to them for you?”  No, she specifically states that her actions will all depend on how Harry responds to her.  That’s a kind of manipulation.  Harry makes his decision knowing that he will win or lose Karrin’s trust by agreeing or disagreeing with her.  She even poses that question directly to Dresden right before he submits – if you want my trust, you have to give me trust.
It's tough love. Harry doesn't need someone to coddle him. Harry can be a little thick sometimes; sometimes he needs soft and subtle (like Murphy is later in that same scene, where Harry muses that she knows what he's going through), and sometimes he needs a brick to the head. 

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Michael did not see Harry nearly pound Murphy's head into the wall. Michael did not see Harry having to mentally hold back from viciously raping his daughter. Michael did not see Harry agreeing to "watch the world burn" to get what he wants.  Nope.  But for the first two, I do believe that Michael would see them as Harry learning restraint with the Winter Mantle.  He directly addresses the last one in Skin Game, and acknowledges that he doesn’t know if he would do any differently.
Key word is learning. He's still working through the Mantle. He's like a teenager -- you don't give them the keys to the BMW until they've finished learning how to drive. You don't give it to him when he's still running his old VW Bug into light posts.

Just because Harry was at one point a fit custodian doesn't mean he is at all times and in all places a fit custodian.

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Michael soulgazed Harry more than a decade ago. A lot has changed in Harry's life since then.  True, but remember that the soulgaze is a view of a person’s fundamental self, and Harry has stated more than once that if a person has changed drastically since them they would trigger a new soulgaze.
A soulgaze is also affected by someone's current mindset and emotions. Soulgazing Winter Knight Harry is going to be very different than soulgazing Pre-SF Harry, even if it'ts not a complete personality change.

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Tell me how putting her trust in Harry is "letting fear and doubts" guide her.  Because she’s not trusting Harry.  She doesn’t trust that he won’t turn evil – she doesn’t get that until Skin Game.  At this point, she’s just at the ‘wait and see’ stage.  She gives Harry a limited amount of trust IF he also surrenders these articles of power to her.
And then for the rest of the book she does things like drive her motorcycle onto Lake Michigan surrounded by the Wyld Hunt. That kinda sounds like trust to me.

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That's all Murphy was doing. You cannot ignore that Harry is working through a lot of dark stuff in Cold Days.  Agree with all of these things, and also with what Murph was doing.  I swear, sometimes it sounds to me like we’re making the same argument.  However, I do think that Karrin’s making the wrong decision here.  Is it easier to make the right decision if your friends tell you that they have faith in you and believe in you, or is it easier if they treat you like you could turn into a monster at any point?  Skin Game Karrin has a different opinion on the matter than Cold Days Karrin, and came to that conclusion seemingly independent of rampaging Dresden.
Harry is acting in a manner that would, if he was holding the Swords, make then vulnerable and unmake them. In Grave Peril, "lashing out with violence against the Swords' mission" is literally the thing Harry does that lets Lea grab the Sword, and in Skin Game, that's exactly what he's a hair's breadth from doing to Murphy before he realizes what he's done.

In that book, Harry shouldn't have the Swords because his actions are exactly the thing that would put the Swords in danger.

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I’m not ignoring that Dresden’s going through some really dark stuff.  I know how close he is to violence.  I know that he relies on his friends to point him in the right direction.  But he also relies on them to believe in him.  I know you keep telling me to “reread Cold Days” or “reread Skin Game” – I know these books; it’s not inexperience that’s giving me this viewpoint, despite the large difference in our postcounts on this online forum.  And Karrin taking the swords and Bob at this point is a clear display that she just doesn’t have faith in him to not turn bad at some point in the future.  It’s as simple as that.
Murphy does believe in him, and she proves that in the rest of the book. It's not that she doesn't have faith in him for the future -- it's that she sees what he's doing right now.

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Karrin is who she has always appeared to Dresden to be when he’s seen her with the Sight:  tattered, torn, worn by the world, but trying to do the right thing.  I don’t hold it against her that she makes this decision; anyone else might do the same.  But I’m not going to look at it and say that she’s doing something good for Dresden, because she’s not.  She loves and cares for him, but she has a duty to protect others, and that comes first.
So what happens if she gives him the Swords then and there, and doesn't force him into the realizations he has in that scene? I don't see a scenario there that doesn't end with the Swords breaking.

(Will get to the subsequent posts later because hoo boy. You take one night to go have drinks and come back to several walls of text X.x)
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #137 on: August 17, 2017, 01:53:37 PM »
A. Is nearly punching your friend and ally's head off because you're angry the proper behavior for a custodian of the Swords of the Cross?  Dunno.  See above.  Merlin wasn’t a saint, and Michael was OK with Harry carrying both a coin and a sword.  I would loosely say that whether or not a person should carry a sword seems to be something that is not directly related to their personal code of conduct.
I don't see how you could think that. Why would someone's conduct not be relevant? Do you think Harry was chosen just because he's Harry Dresden, or do you think he was chosen because he's a good man? Would Harry still be entrusted to the Swords if he was a bad man?

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B. Why is Butters exempt from any criticism for his clear distrust of Dresden, which directly led to the Sword being broken?  He’s not.  But the same fear and distrust that Butters puts voice to is the same exact fear and distrust that Murph voices in her entrance and exit from Cold Days.  It’s not that Butters is exempt from it; it’s that Murph is also not exempt from it.  And my WAG puts suspicion on Murphy because despite her sudden realization and faith and trust in Harry, the results of her actions are negative.  Nothing more.
Except Butters' distrust is in Skin Game, and it's what directly leads to the Sword being broken. In all the discussions where people are accusing Murphy of everything from being an arrogant blowhard to intentionally getting the Sword broken, this is never brought up.

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C. Why is Murphy slammed for hiding something from Dresden, while Dresden is not at all criticized for hiding information from Murphy? The information they're hiding is for the same reasons, and neither intended on telling the other that something was hidden.  Don’t remember slamming Murphy for this, so maybe someone else can handle this one.
Yeah, this one is directed more toward Mira.

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D. How is Harry correct in his assessment that in his state of mind and situation he should give Bob back, but thirty seconds later, he's suddenly absolutely the right and only person who should have the Swords, which are just as important as Bob, and which are at greater risk?  Personally, I think that his emotional reaction is because being the custodian of the swords means something to him.  Bob, he acknowledges, is just a very powerful tool that’s dangerous in the wrong hands.  Harry has a sort of respect for the swords and all it represents, and it hurts to be told he's not worthy anymore.

However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG.  The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it.  Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.
As pointed out, Bob ought to mean just as much as the Swords. He's had Bob since he was 16, so we're talking 25-30 years. He's been a friend.

Harry asserting he was given the Swords is an assertion of the Mantle. Do you think The White God is driving Harry to nearly pound Murphy's face in and strangle her? That doesn't sound like his style.

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E. Sanya, a Knight of the Cross, says that someone who is sure they should have the Swords is not someone who should have the Swords. Harry, in Cold Days, is sure he should have the Swords. Is Sanya wrong?  Sanya’s human, and the most junior of the Knights.  It’s kind of like the old cliché – anyone with a desire for power or leadership has proven that they’re not fit to wield it.  I think that these words of Sanya’s aren’t some sort of hard-and-fast code of “What must one do to be a custodian of the Swords?” but rather him stating his personal opinion: “Look, the fact that you’re second-guessing this means that you respect the danger and will not abuse it.”  And yes, that’s my opinion, but I feel that it’s sound.
I thought the only indication from TWG was through his agents. So is Michael's word more ironclad than Sanya's? Why should Sanya's words not be given the same weight?

Turn it around: If what Sanya is saying is, "The fact that you're second-guessing this means that you respect the danger and will not abuse it," doesn't that in turn mean, "The fact that you're so damn sure about it means you've lost some of that perspective, and you might abuse it"?

I mean, we have Harry exhibiting behavior that Sanya -- the longest currently-serving Knight of the Cross, in whose counsel (and vodka) Harry finds comfort and guidance -- would take to mean Harry should not have the Swords. That seems to make things pretty clear to me.
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Offline forumghost

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #138 on: August 17, 2017, 02:07:38 PM »
TBH the main issue that I have with the whole Swords Debacle is that the entire confrontation was so unnecessary. Harry doesn't ask for the Swords back- Murphy just gets in his face and says "Fuck off Dresden, Mine now or we aren't friends".

Which... well, you can call it tough love (which it arguably is) you can call it the right decision re: the Sword's safety (which it almost definitely is) but it is still her acting like a witch with a B and deliberately trying to trigger Harry's berserk buttons to make him concede.

Like, if she'd confronted Harry about Bob with the same aggression she does about the Swords, I think the reaction would be just as violent. The whole confrontation was her deliberately setting him off.

Personally I agree that her reasons for doing so are benevolent, but yeah... people don't like people that act like a dick, and Murphy was doing so quite deliberately there, so it's no surprise she gets some flak for it.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:11:10 PM by forumghost »

Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #139 on: August 17, 2017, 02:21:36 PM »
TBH the main issue that I have with the whole Swords Debacle is that the entire confrontation was so unnecessary. Harry doesn't ask for the Swords back- Murphy just gets in his face and says "Fuck off Dresden, Mine now or we aren't friends".

Which... well, you can call it tough love (which it arguably is) you can call it the right decision re: the Sword's safety (which it almost definitely is) but it is still her acting like a witch with a B and deliberately trying to trigger Harry's berserk buttons to make him concede.

Like, if she'd confronted Harry about Bob with the same aggression she does about the Swords, I think the reaction would be just as violent. The whole confrontation was her deliberately setting him off.

Personally I agree that her reasons for doing so are benevolent, but yeah... people don't like people that act like a dick, and Murphy was doing so quite deliberately there, so it's no surprise she gets some flak for it.

Which pretty much gets at my problem with her these days...  I do think her intentions were good, and I wouldn't say she got into Harry's face quite the way you are saying.. However I agree with the gist of what I think you are saying, Murphy tends to jump to conclusions because she thinks she knows Harry, tells him how he is screwing everyone over, but that isn't helping except to make him feel bad.  But the truth is, she knows nothing about this Harry, never asks questions about coming back from being mostly dead, struggling with the Winter Mantle, just why he couldn't leave the island for a year.  Did she ever ask him one question about his headaches or why he was wearing an earring now?   Things a very concerned close friend who professes love for this person should know or have some idea about..  One might ask if her insisting on keeping the Swords with vague justification in Skin Game was more of a power trip or trying to maintain power than concern that Harry might go postal...

Offline Quantus

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #140 on: August 17, 2017, 02:34:03 PM »
Like, if she'd confronted Harry about Bob with the same aggression she does about the Swords, I think the reaction would be just as violent. The whole confrontation was her deliberately setting him off.
Point of Fact: She did, That scene was about both the Skull and the Swords.  He just agreed to give it back to butters easier than with the Swords. 


Personally, I dont hold Cold Days against her too hard.  Do I agree with how she went about things? No; she'd had a shitty year and was unnecessarily confrontational, venting her own issues on Harry a bit.  But were her concerns valid?  Yes, absolutely; She wasnt yet sure if the thing that came back was actually Harry, or if it was a Mab-monster in Harry Shape (which was a possibility that it took an Archangel to avoid).

The Key that I think a lot of this conversation seems to ignore is that she had a year between CD and SG, and she very clearly and specifically had worked through her shit.  In CD she was in the midst of a crisis of Faith just like Harry was in CD, just like most of them were in GS.  We cant just declare that once we Hate a character they never get the possibility of Change.  Characters that dont Change are Boring, and non of think that about the Dresden Files, Im certain. 
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Offline wardenferry419

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #141 on: August 17, 2017, 03:02:28 PM »
Two things:

- Saying that Harry only views Bob as a useful tool and has no emotional attachments to him is insane.
- If the TWG decided that Murphy was an unworthy custodian of the swords, do you really believe that they would have left them in her care for two years? They have one active knight who could have come over at any time and taken them. And I don't think Murphy would have second-guessed Sanya for a nanosecond if that would have been the case, since he gets his marching orders directly from the Big Guy.
The swords are a great responsibility bestowed on Harry with trust. Being their custodian means that a higher power deems Harry worthy. Bob is a magical weapon that Harry stole or saved because he understood its value. Harry has a more personal feeling about Bob than swords.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #142 on: August 17, 2017, 04:01:14 PM »
The swords are a great responsibility bestowed on Harry with trust. Being their custodian means that a higher power deems Harry worthy. Bob is a magical weapon that Harry stole or saved because he understood its value. Harry has a more personal feeling about Bob than swords.

Indeed he does, for a number of years Bob was the only being he could confide in.
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The Key that I think a lot of this conversation seems to ignore is that she had a year between CD and SG, and she very clearly and specifically had worked through her shit.

Had she?  I am not so sure, she acted like it, but her actions said she hadn't.   As I said not once did she ask Harry how his head was feeling, I find it hard to believe she didn't know about his headaches, Butters did as early as Turn Coat.  I find it hard to believe she didn't ask him about his earring..  Nor did she toss Harry a bone about his efforts to get his mantle under control, not one word about him doing the best he can..  No, I don't think she had it together at all, it just appeared that she did.. Consider, Butters lost it with Harry because the year had been a horrible one against the Fomor, I think it had to be at least as bad for Murphy, plus the fact that she felt responsible for her foot soldiers.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 04:09:38 PM by Mira »

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #143 on: August 17, 2017, 04:11:06 PM »
Mr. Death,

Great answers; love your reasoning.  I agree with a good amount of what you said above.  I want to keep this a bit short, as I can’t keep writing gigantic essays.  But I do want to say this for Karrin:  assuming that my WAG isn’t correct and she isn’t being somehow subtly influenced by something else, I think that she’s a pretty amazing character.  She’s human, like everyone else, and makes some mistakes, but every single one is done with the best of intentions.  She goes through a great amount of personal growth, and Skin Game shows it.  She’s probably in the top three or four of my favorite DF characters. 

One:  I want to address a few of the things that you said about who should and should not have possession of the swords.  Much of the responses that you’ve given state that Dresden shouldn’t be the custodian of the swords because a sword wielded for the wrong reasons is incredibly fragile.  The one thing, though, is that after Grave Peril, Dresden has never, never, NEVER had any inclination to wield a Sword.  He’s very vocally against it.  When he talks about the Knights, it’s not uncommon for him to drop in lines such as “And that’s why I will never be a knight.”  Even when his daughter is almost certainly going to die and he crosses every line in Changes, he doesn’t pick up the sword.  He gives them to others who he thinks would best use them.

In Cold Days, Harry’s in a position that he might, in a rage, do some sort of violent thing without thinking.  However, that kind of rash thinking doesn't put the sword in danger if it's sitting at home in the popcorn tin by the door.  To go from custodian of the sword to wielder of the sword requires that Harry must be carrying it on him, or already be planning on using it.  To do either would mean that Harry would have had to make the choice to suddenly be a wielder – something that he would certainly not do in Cold Days.

If you can show me where, post Grave Peril, Harry considers using one of the Swords in his possession, I’ll admit that there really is a danger here and that his custodianship would put the swords in danger.  But I don’t believe such a thing exists.

Two:  You ask how I could believe that being a custodian of the swords is not dependent on one’s own actions and moral code.  The difference is in how you define the word “should.”  When we ask the question of “Should Dresden be custodian?” there’s two different ways we can take it.

You and I, and Karrin and Dresden, and any mortal can debate whether someone should or should not have something.  The US debates all the time on whether people should or should not have firearms, and to what extent, and under what permits.  There’s ultimately no right or wrong answer; only general consensus.  To us, “Should” means “I judge that this is the best possible choice, given all we know.” 

The swords, though, are artifacts which are powered directly by the will of TWG.  They are effective when their weilders are on mission, ineffective other times.  While TWG is not the same thing as the Christian God that people in the real world believe in, he has the same essential attributes and is intended to be a representation of the real thing.  When we’re talking about a being who is omnipotent and omniscient, who has an ineffable plan for the world, “Should” takes on a different meaning.  “Should” means “This is where TWG would want it to go.”

Dresden never is custodian of the sword on his own merits.  He doesn’t earn the right to be keeper of the sword.  Remember this bit from The Warrior, during the confrontation between Father Douglas and Michael:
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“You abandoned your duty,” Douglas gasped.  “The world grows darker by the day.  People cry out for our help, and you would have this sword sit with this creature of witchcraft and deceit?”
“You arrogant child,” Michael snarled.  “The Almighty Himself has made His will known.  If you are a man of faith, then you must abide by it.”
“You have been lied to,” Douglas said.  “How could God ignore His people when they need His protection so badly?”
“That is not for us to know!” Michael shouted.  “Don’t you see, you fool?  We are only men.  We see only in one place at one time.  The Lord knows all that might be.  Would you presume to say that you know better than our God what should be done with the swords?”
Dresden’s not custodian because he earns it.  It even seems at some times, to some people, that it must be the working of evil that he has them at all.  And I know that in this moment, it seems like Harry shouldn’t hold them, either.  At least, it does to Karrin.  But “should” for mortals is not “should” for TWG.

Three:  You ask me about the difference between Sanya and Michael.  The difference comes in their particular creeds:  Michael is Catholic, and Sanya is agnostic.  I don’t mean by this that Michael is somehow better than Sanya, but being Catholic means that he regularly goes to TWG in prayer and seeks his guidance on many things.  Sanya, on the other hand, candidly states that the Archangel Michael and Uriel could be aliens or some sort of delusion.  Obviously, he’s still a Knight; TWG is sponsoring him just as much as he is Michael.  But Sanya’s actions do not reflect a proactive seeking of their will; rather, a reactive following of commands.  He doesn’t pray for help and guidance and support; rather, he acts as he sees fit and remarks that if TWG has an issue with his actions, that he’s never come to him about it.  This also reflects him giving the sword back to Dresden in Changes:  Sanya believes that if Uriel has a problem, then he should step in.

The difference is small.  But when we’re talking about angels, beings whose primary responsibility is to preserve the freedom of will and the ability to choose, there’s a big difference between a man seeking guidance and choosing based off of that guidance versus choosing first and assuming that divine intervention will step in and stop him if he chose wrong. 

Oh, and here I went and wrote an essay again.  *sigh*

Offline magnuskn

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #144 on: August 17, 2017, 04:31:03 PM »
The swords are a great responsibility bestowed on Harry with trust. Being their custodian means that a higher power deems Harry worthy. Bob is a magical weapon that Harry stole or saved because he understood its value. Harry has a more personal feeling about Bob than swords.

I'd wager that Harry would rather save a friend than the swords.

Offline Kindler

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #145 on: August 17, 2017, 06:11:04 PM »
Murphy wasn't just concerned about Dresden in Cold Days, she was pissed. Her first real words to Harry are "You don't call, you don't write..." She felt glad to see him, but still feels betrayed, with pretty good reason. After she goes along to Chichen Itza with Harry and Pals, they make a date, and she promptly finds his murder scene. Immediately thereafter, she's thrust into a conflict with supernatural predators, and her until-then dependable companion and invaluable resource in fighting monsters is gone. She's forced to make tough decisions for a year, while desperately holding on to the slim hope that Harry isn't even dead.

Then Harry comes back as (what she thinks is) a ghost, and she's blatantly crushed. She spends most of Ghost Story in denial. Then his ghost appears to move on, from Mort's ending conversation, and she's crushed all over again.

Then Cold Days kicks off, and Harry is basically like "Surprise! I've been alive for like six to eight months or so," but Harry doesn't pick up a phone and call her, she finds him. She then spends the next, what, fifteen, twenty hours with him? The main plot of Cold Days starts pretty much at 12:01 Halloween morning, and ends just before dawn on November 1st. We're talking about thirty hours, total.

I think it's extremely unfair to expect Murphy to deal with the fact that the guy she has feelings for and might even love has pretty much come back from the dead, had been back from the dead for quite a while, and is clearly under the influence of the Winter Knight's Mantle, all in a matter of a little over a day.

She's perfectly within her rights to question Harry's mental health. In her shoes, wouldn't you think that maybe some of this is a little too good to be true? It's essentially a granted wish, or an answered prayer, far, far later than you would have hoped.

Then a year passes, and Skin Game starts up. Butters explains his perspective, that Harry's return was a huge Hope Spot for everyone in Chicago, only for Dresden to disappear back to Demonreach rather than be the typical Snark Knight they'd come to expect and kick the Fomor out of the city. I get the sense that Butters didn't go out to Demonreach all that often, if at all, so he had no idea what Harry was doing.

Murphy, meanwhile, signs up pretty much right away. She's just surprised that Harry wants her to come. She backs his plan pretty much without reservation. When Dresden asks if she's going to bring the swords because these are the guys they're pretty much made to fight, her response isn't "No, I don't trust you," it's along the lines of "I've wielded one for real, and I get the feeling that this isn't their fight." She's not speaking from mistrust, she's speaking from experience.

She's right, by the way; if she had heeded her own instincts, the sword would never have been broken.

Instead, she decides to involve the sword when they see the Genoskwa. Again, I don't see this as mistrust at all. This is her grabbing something because she sees something that can physically outmatch her and was able to toss Mantled Harry around like a paper doll, the same guy who she saw literally smash thousands of vampires with a word a couple years before.

The bone of contention seems to be whether or not she withheld the fact that the rocket launcher was actually the sword from Harry was because she didn't trust him or because she knew Nic might be listening in. I don't think either one need be true, and I'm not sure why it's even evidence of mistrust.

There's no practical reason to tell Harry. All telling him would do is give him the opportunity to let slip that she has it with her. She's able to hold back its involvement as a sucker punch—which is not a good idea, mostly because I don't think that's how the swords are supposed to be used, but it doesn't say anything about her opinion of Harry or their relationship. Messing up isn't demonstrative of lack of trust.

Even if she's not considering practicality, she doesn't tell Harry.

So what? I don't understand why that's a problem. Did Harry tell her (or even the reader) about the seventy-seven sigils he carved onto his staff? He knows she has a weapon that might make the Genoskwa think twice. Isn't that enough?

I just don't think Murphy not cheerleading Harry in every scene demonstrates lack of trust or a change in character. She's never been that way before, so why would she be now?

Concerning keeping the Swords, well, she has no reason to give them to Harry during Cold Days. He's clearly not in his right mind, and they only come up within ten minutes of them having their first real conversation in a couple of years. Then, after the book, Harry retreats to Demonreach. What, she's supposed to hand two of the most powerful weapons for Good and Nice Things to a hermit, where they can't do anyone any good at all, while Chicago is still essentially under siege? It seems pretty clear to me that she's holding on to them so that they might be of use in an emergency, while Dresden is perfectly capable of burning most things to a cinder, along with the car the guy's driving and the city block around him. He doesn't need the option, but she, and the people of Chicago, might.

I don't think it's an accident that Harry getting the sword (of Love, funnily enough) happens right after he decides to be a dad, and rejoin society.

As for Butters, I don't think his lack of faith is unfounded. He gives pretty good reasons for not trusting Harry completely. And when he realizes how dumb he was, his reaction is almost verbatim, "I'm an idiot." Personally, I think he took to espionage like a giraffe to table tennis, and was trying too hard to be Batman, who famously trusts nobody ('cept Alfred and Dick). Someone I know found it infuriating that Butters's lack of faith was rewarded with a sword, but my interpretation is that broken faith broke the sword of faith, then restored faith restored the sword of faith.

But it's Murphy who pays the price for Butters's mistrust. Not that she doesn't make mistakes, but that the situation was created mostly by a friend who didn't have enough faith. Butters didn't even trust Murphy, the woman he'd fought alongside for the past year or two, to keep a level head about Dresden and the fight. He gets better, but he's not the one who pays for his mistakes, aside from guilt.

Anyway, I've yet to see any evidence that shows Murphy acting inconsistent with her character, or seriously distrusting Harry, aside from twenty hours during which she has every reason to doubt Harry, but still drives a freaking motorcycle onto a lake when he asks her to.

If anything, I think Murphy is doubting herself.

Offline Quantus

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #146 on: August 17, 2017, 06:35:54 PM »
Indeed he does, for a number of years Bob was the only being he could confide in.
Had she?  I am not so sure, she acted like it, but her actions said she hadn't.   As I said not once did she ask Harry how his head was feeling, I find it hard to believe she didn't know about his headaches, Butters did as early as Turn Coat.  I find it hard to believe she didn't ask him about his earring..  Nor did she toss Harry a bone about his efforts to get his mantle under control, not one word about him doing the best he can..  No, I don't think she had it together at all, it just appeared that she did.. Consider, Butters lost it with Harry because the year had been a horrible one against the Fomor, I think it had to be at least as bad for Murphy, plus the fact that she felt responsible for her foot soldiers.
Wait, so the reason you think she doesnt trust him is that she Didnt interrogate about his fashion or his health conditions?   Meanwhile she gives a fairly eloquent speech trying to convince Butters that he should trust Harry?  Im not sure what you think trust should look like, at this point.

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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #147 on: August 17, 2017, 07:13:30 PM »
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Personally, I think he took to espionage like a giraffe to table tennis,

You, sir, have made my day.

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Someone I know found it infuriating that Butters's lack of faith was rewarded with a sword, but my interpretation is that broken faith broke the sword of faith, then restored faith restored the sword of faith.

Sometimes, I suspect that Knights are chosen not because they already are good people, but that they have the potential to be good people.  Sanya was a has-been Denarian trying to find himself.  Shiro came to know TWG by accident, looking for Elvis.  Susan was a conflicted half-vampire.  Murph is Murph.  Butters is, as you state, very conflicted before he makes his self-sacrificial act of faith.

I feel that they are not only chosen for the good that they can do, but also so that they can recognize and choose to grow in ways that they couldn’t before.  We’re all looking forward to Mirror Mirror and seeing what alternate-future Dresden will be.  I’m thinking of Mirror Mirror and wondering if we’ll get a chance to see a Murphy who accepted Fidelacchius.  She was given a choice as well and decided against taking up the Sword.  I wonder who she would be now if she had chosen differently.

I also wonder who Michael was before he took up the Sword how long ago.

Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #148 on: August 17, 2017, 07:49:11 PM »
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One:  I want to address a few of the things that you said about who should and should not have possession of the swords.  Much of the responses that you’ve given state that Dresden shouldn’t be the custodian of the swords because a sword wielded for the wrong reasons is incredibly fragile.  The one thing, though, is that after Grave Peril, Dresden has never, never, NEVER had any inclination to wield a Sword.  He’s very vocally against it.  When he talks about the Knights, it’s not uncommon for him to drop in lines such as “And that’s why I will never be a knight.”  Even when his daughter is almost certainly going to die and he crosses every line in Changes, he doesn’t pick up the sword.  He gives them to others who he thinks would best use them.

And as pointed out by Michael he has been very good in his selection of Knights.
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Murphy wasn't just concerned about Dresden in Cold Days, she was pissed. Her first real words to Harry are "You don't call, you don't write..." She felt glad to see him, but still feels betrayed, with pretty good reason. After she goes along to Chichen Itza with Harry and Pals, they make a date, and she promptly finds his murder scene. Immediately thereafter, she's thrust into a conflict with supernatural predators, and her until-then dependable companion and invaluable resource in fighting monsters is gone. She's forced to make tough decisions for a year, while desperately holding on to the slim hope that Harry isn't even dead.
No, truth is he couldn't he had been mostly dead for half of that year and in rehab for the rest...  She also had good reason to believe he was dead in Ghost Story, so why weren't her first words to Harry, "HARRY!  YOU'RE ALIVE! I thought you were dead, what happened?"  But no, about her feeling betrayed because he didn't call or write....
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Murphy, meanwhile, signs up pretty much right away. She's just surprised that Harry wants her to come. She backs his plan pretty much without reservation. When Dresden asks if she's going to bring the swords because these are the guys they're pretty much made to fight, her response isn't "No, I don't trust you," it's along the lines of "I've wielded one for real, and I get the feeling that this isn't their fight." She's not speaking from mistrust, she's speaking from experience.

She's right, by the way; if she had heeded her own instincts, the sword would never have been broken.

Instead, she decides to involve the sword when they see the Genoskwa. Again, I don't see this as mistrust at all. This is her grabbing something because she sees something that can physically outmatch her and was able to toss Mantled Harry around like a paper doll, the same guy who she saw literally smash thousands of vampires with a word a couple years before.

Point here is, she knows she shouldn't wield one, her instincts are right...  But she brings it anyway... Does she even ask Harry's opinion on whether or not that was a good idea considering?  No...  Did she trust that he might agree with her? No..  Instead she hides it like a fat lady hiding a candy wrapper thinking no one would notice..  For all her smarts, she displayed her ignorance because she should have known that Nick was listening in and would set her up.. Harry realized it the minute she pulled the Sword out that he didn't know she had with her, but it was too late then..
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I just don't think Murphy not cheerleading Harry in every scene demonstrates lack of trust or a change in character. She's never been that way before, so why would she be now?

Not cheerleader, but supportive...  If you have a alcoholic that has stayed off the booze for a year, do you berate him because he went off to kick the habit?  Or do you say something to the effect that he looks great or keep up the good work you are there for him?  That's what friends do...
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Anyway, I've yet to see any evidence that shows Murphy acting inconsistent with her character, or seriously distrusting Harry, aside from twenty hours during which she has every reason to doubt Harry, but still drives a freaking motorcycle onto a lake when he asks her to.
Evidence?  The fact that she keeps reminding him he could turn into a monster... That means she thinks he could still turn into a monster... No, my friend she doesn't completely trust that he won't.
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Wait, so the reason you think she doesnt trust him is that she Didnt interrogate about his fashion or his health conditions?   Meanwhile she gives a fairly eloquent speech trying to convince Butters that he should trust Harry?  Im not sure what you think trust should look like, at this point.

In a sense, yes...  Why because she doesn't care to get to the bottom of why he was gone, all she can do is tell him how he has let his friends down...  So yeah, eloquent to Butters at that moment, but what about the year that had passed?  Do you think Butters would have come to mistrust Harry in a vacuum?  She may not have added to it, but I bet she didn't disabuse him of that notion either. 

Offline Quantus

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #149 on: August 17, 2017, 07:58:12 PM »
In a sense, yes...  Why because she doesn't care to get to the bottom of why he was gone, all she can do is tell him how he has let his friends down... 
You seem to be projecting motivation there.  He appeard to lay out everything out to murphy in the off-screen moments prior to SG Ch 2.  You are assuming that a) harry didnt mention Mabs interference, b) that she didnt ask, and c) that IF she didnt ask it was from a lack of Caring about him rather than trusting him to have his secrets (which is precisely what she was doing the entire book).

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So yeah, eloquent to Butters at that moment, but what about the year that had passed?  Do you think Butters would have come to mistrust Harry in a vacuum?  She may not have added to it, but I bet she didn't disabuse him of that notion either.
You mean during the year that Mab had kept him prisoner and been actively modifying all communications specifically to instill Mistrust in his allies (like Butters).  Or do you mean when she disabused him of it On Stage in SG??
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