Author Topic: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)  (Read 86522 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #120 on: August 16, 2017, 07:54:01 PM »
WOW ... you guys sure do type a lot.
I do admit I get pretty verbose. I seem incapable of making a point without going into several paragraphs and at least one analogy.
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Offline Quantus

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #121 on: August 16, 2017, 08:13:30 PM »
I do admit I get pretty verbose. I seem incapable of making a point without going into several paragraphs and at least one analogy.
Whereas I always feel lost without a whiteboard and at least three colors to explain myself... :P
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Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #122 on: August 16, 2017, 08:16:29 PM »

  I think some are thinking that it is a right or a wrong with whether or not Murphy trust Harry totally..  It is clear that she doesn't... She may have had good reasons considering the Winter Mantle and all, but her not giving the Swords back to Harry and the issue of Bob, says she doesn't... End of story.. Harry gives into her because he completely trust her judgement..  He trusts her judgement so much that it makes him question everything about himself. 

Again, her reasons for not trusting Harry may have been good, she still doesn't trust him as of Skin Game, because she still won't release the Swords to Harry's care, though their custody was something she took upon herself, yet she implies that it was handed to her by divine judgement, with a dig that she knows because she has faith and Harry doesn't.  Now this doesn't make her a bad person, she may have been totally right not to completely trust Harry because of what he had been though... But while those issues remained, and they did up until the shattering of the Sword, love or no love, in spite of what she said to Butters about complete trust,  Murphy did not completely trust Harry..  Either she was lying to Butters to make him feel better, or something worse.. She does trust Harry completely but has her own agenda..  It may not be all that sinister either, she may have wanted to keep control of the Swords because she felt that she was losing influence.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #123 on: August 16, 2017, 08:33:06 PM »
  I think some are thinking that it is a right or a wrong with whether or not Murphy trust Harry totally..  It is clear that she doesn't... She may have had good reasons considering the Winter Mantle and all, but her not giving the Swords back to Harry and the issue of Bob, says she doesn't... End of story.. Harry gives into her because he completely trust her judgement..  He trusts her judgement so much that it makes him question everything about himself. 
"End of story"?

So her actions in the rest of the book and in Skin Game don't count? That point locks Murphy's character development in place, and nothing she says or does afterward reflects any change in how much she trusts Dresden?

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Again, her reasons for not trusting Harry may have been good, she still doesn't trust him as of Skin Game, because she still won't release the Swords to Harry's care, though their custody was something she took upon herself, yet she implies that it was handed to her by divine judgement, with a dig that she knows because she has faith and Harry doesn't.
Harry doesn't ask for the Swords in Skin Game. She never once implies it was "handed to her by divine judgment," and her saying she has faith is not a "dig" at Harry.

The things you are saying here are simply not true.

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Now this doesn't make her a bad person, she may have been totally right not to completely trust Harry because of what he had been though... But while those issues remained, and they did up until the shattering of the Sword, love or no love, in spite of what she said to Butters about complete trust,  Murphy did not completely trust Harry..  Either she was lying to Butters to make him feel better, or something worse.. She does trust Harry completely but has her own agenda..  It may not be all that sinister either, she may have wanted to keep control of the Swords because she felt that she was losing influence.
Just repeating "she doesn't trust Harry" doesn't make it true, and ignoring all the arguments against that assertion doesn't erase them. I asked you several questions and you're just not addressing them.

Yet again, you're accusing Murphy of not trusting Harry, and completely whitewashing Butters' roll in shattering the Sword.

Yet again, you are acting like the clear, obvious and explicit character development of both Murphy and Harry between the two books didn't happen.

Mira, I ask again: Why do you say nothing about Butters' distrust of Harry? Why do you exclusively target Murphy as if she is the only factor in the breaking of the Sword?
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 08:39:01 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #124 on: August 16, 2017, 09:02:50 PM »
I have several questions I would like to see addressed. I've asked them a few times, nobody seems to have answered them.

A. Is nearly punching your friend and ally's head off because you're angry the proper behavior for a custodian of the Swords of the Cross?

B. Why is Butters exempt from any criticism for his clear distrust of Dresden, which directly led to the Sword being broken?

C. Why is Murphy slammed for hiding something from Dresden, while Dresden is not at all criticized for hiding information from Murphy? The information they're hiding is for the same reasons, and neither intended on telling the other that something was hidden.

D. How is Harry correct in his assessment that in his state of mind and situation he should give Bob back, but thirty seconds later, he's suddenly absolutely the right and only person who should have the Swords, which are just as important as Bob, and which are at greater risk?

E. Sanya, a Knight of the Cross, says that someone who is sure they should have the Swords is not someone who should have the Swords. Harry, in Cold Days, is sure he should have the Swords. Is Sanya wrong?

Someone please answer those. If Murphy is really at fault here, if she just distrusts Dresden and is just an arrogant manipulator only concerned with her own influence, then these questions shouldn't be hard to answer.

That they haven't yet sends a pretty clear message.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 09:09:55 PM by Mr. Death »
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #125 on: August 16, 2017, 09:41:13 PM »
Hey Mr. Death, I just want to start with saying this:  I’m totally cool if this is just a debate back and forth.  But I’m a little concerned that I might be hitting a nerve or be pushing too far.  No need to turn a friendly debate into an argument.  If I’m coming across as a jerk or something, let me know and I’ll walk away.  No big deal.

Anyways, to answer your questions:
And, again: Is instant violence the kind of response that the rightful custodian of the Swords should have?  Depends.  Michael knew that Harry was the keeper of the sword of Faith in the same time period that he knew that he had touched a coin and was under a Fallen’s influence.  Yet Michael never stepped in and took the sword from him.  I think that Michael defers to the judgment of higher powers rather than his own, and I don’t think that the servants of TWG are as swayed by momentary actions as much as the heart and choice of the individual.  They also have a different perspective than the average mortal.

Why would Butcher copy and paste the same exact things again? What in that paragraph applies to Bob but doesn't apply to the Swords?  Good point.  You may be right.

Tell me what text in the books indicates Murphy is "manipulating" him. Tell me what text in the books indicates that Harry should have the Swords in that time and place.  Of course, you know that it never explicitly says that Harry should have had the swords in the text of the book.  The only one who can determine who *should* have the swords is TWG, and we only see his will as expressed through his servants.  Uriel can be trusted to reflect his master’s will; Michael, to a lesser extent – he is human, after all.  But it is to be noted that both Michael and Uriel both act with faith and trust in Harry, and so far that faith and trust has not been misplaced.  Harry’s actions, while out of character, are completely in character of someone under the power of the Winter Mantle.  The only thing out of character are the choices that Harry makes.

As for manipulating, I feel like you’re taking this in the “HAHAHA, I have you now!” kind of sneaky dark manipulation.  Murph knows that Harry wants and values her trust and loyalty.  She makes it very clear that she’s willing to give it IF Harry goes along with her requests.  She doesn’t sit down calmly with Harry and say, “Hey, I’m worried that you have these two things, can I maybe hang on to them for you?”  No, she specifically states that her actions will all depend on how Harry responds to her.  That’s a kind of manipulation.  Harry makes his decision knowing that he will win or lose Karrin’s trust by agreeing or disagreeing with her.  She even poses that question directly to Dresden right before he submits – if you want my trust, you have to give me trust.

Mab shows Harry later on how everything he’s ever done with Molly can all be seen as him manipulating her into being completely indebted and beholden to him.  And it’s both true and false.  Harry never intended to manipulate Molly, but the result of his actions and choices was that Molly was in that situation. 

You're acting like Murphy is making some kind of power play, when that's not the case.  I’m saying that she’s doing her best to protect everyone she knows by limiting the amount of damage Harry could do.  And she’s using her trust and loyalty as the lever to get Dresden to listen to her.  Yeah, if my WAG is correct then it could also be some sort of dark play to get the swords in custody and destroy one in a totally legit manner, but that’s a WAG.

That the two exchanges happen more than a year apart and that Harry's mindset and control of the Mantle are in very different places is not a matter of opinion. They're observable, explicit fact.  Very true. 

Michael did not see Harry nearly pound Murphy's head into the wall. Michael did not see Harry having to mentally hold back from viciously raping his daughter. Michael did not see Harry agreeing to "watch the world burn" to get what he wants.  Nope.  But for the first two, I do believe that Michael would see them as Harry learning restraint with the Winter Mantle.  He directly addresses the last one in Skin Game, and acknowledges that he doesn’t know if he would do any differently.

Michael soulgazed Harry more than a decade ago. A lot has changed in Harry's life since then.  True, but remember that the soulgaze is a view of a person’s fundamental self, and Harry has stated more than once that if a person has changed drastically since them they would trigger a new soulgaze.

Tell me how putting her trust in Harry is "letting fear and doubts" guide her.  Because she’s not trusting Harry.  She doesn’t trust that he won’t turn evil – she doesn’t get that until Skin Game.  At this point, she’s just at the ‘wait and see’ stage.  She gives Harry a limited amount of trust IF he also surrenders these articles of power to her.

If my wife said that she trusted me to go out with my friends, but only if two really pretty friends aren’t along, then it’s clear that she doesn’t trust me not to get up to any shenanigans. 

That's all Murphy was doing. You cannot ignore that Harry is working through a lot of dark stuff in Cold Days.  Agree with all of these things, and also with what Murph was doing.  I swear, sometimes it sounds to me like we’re making the same argument.  However, I do think that Karrin’s making the wrong decision here.  Is it easier to make the right decision if your friends tell you that they have faith in you and believe in you, or is it easier if they treat you like you could turn into a monster at any point?  Skin Game Karrin has a different opinion on the matter than Cold Days Karrin, and came to that conclusion seemingly independent of rampaging Dresden.

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Butters sighed.  “I see what you did there.”
“I don’t think you do,” she said.  “It’s about choices, Waldo.  About faith.  You have an array of facts in front of you that can fit any of several truths.  You have to choose what you’re going to allow to drive your decisions about how to deal with those facts.”
“What do you mean?”
“You can let fear be what motivates you,” Karrin said.  “Maybe you’re right; maybe Dresden is being turned into a monster against his knowledge and will.  Maybe one day he’ll be something that kills us all.  You’re not wrong.  That kind of thing can happen; it scares me, too.”
“Then why are you arguing with me?”
Karrin paused for a time before answering.  “Because fear is a terrible, insidious thing, Waldo.  It taints and stains everything it touches.  If you let fear start driving some of your decisions, sooner or later it will drive them all.  I decided that I’m not going to be the kind of person who lives her life in fear of her friends turning into monsters.”
 “What, just like that?”
“It took me a long, long time to get there,” she said.  “But at the end of the day, I would rather have faith in the people I care about than allow my fears to change them, in my own eyes, if nowhere else.  I guess maybe you don’t see what’s happening with Harry here.”
“What?” Butters asked.
“This is what it looks like when someone’s fighting for his soul,” she said.  “He needs his friends to believe in him.  The fastest way for us to help us make him into a monster is to look at him like he is one.

I’m not ignoring that Dresden’s going through some really dark stuff.  I know how close he is to violence.  I know that he relies on his friends to point him in the right direction.  But he also relies on them to believe in him.  I know you keep telling me to “reread Cold Days” or “reread Skin Game” – I know these books; it’s not inexperience that’s giving me this viewpoint, despite the large difference in our postcounts on this online forum.  And Karrin taking the swords and Bob at this point is a clear display that she just doesn’t have faith in him to not turn bad at some point in the future.  It’s as simple as that.

Karrin is who she has always appeared to Dresden to be when he’s seen her with the Sight:  tattered, torn, worn by the world, but trying to do the right thing.  I don’t hold it against her that she makes this decision; anyone else might do the same.  But I’m not going to look at it and say that she’s doing something good for Dresden, because she’s not.  She loves and cares for him, but she has a duty to protect others, and that comes first.

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #126 on: August 16, 2017, 09:58:40 PM »
Oo, another one!  Sure, I’ll tackle this.

A. Is nearly punching your friend and ally's head off because you're angry the proper behavior for a custodian of the Swords of the Cross?  Dunno.  See above.  Merlin wasn’t a saint, and Michael was OK with Harry carrying both a coin and a sword.  I would loosely say that whether or not a person should carry a sword seems to be something that is not directly related to their personal code of conduct.

B. Why is Butters exempt from any criticism for his clear distrust of Dresden, which directly led to the Sword being broken?  He’s not.  But the same fear and distrust that Butters puts voice to is the same exact fear and distrust that Murph voices in her entrance and exit from Cold Days.  It’s not that Butters is exempt from it; it’s that Murph is also not exempt from it.  And my WAG puts suspicion on Murphy because despite her sudden realization and faith and trust in Harry, the results of her actions are negative.  Nothing more.

C. Why is Murphy slammed for hiding something from Dresden, while Dresden is not at all criticized for hiding information from Murphy? The information they're hiding is for the same reasons, and neither intended on telling the other that something was hidden.  Don’t remember slamming Murphy for this, so maybe someone else can handle this one.

D. How is Harry correct in his assessment that in his state of mind and situation he should give Bob back, but thirty seconds later, he's suddenly absolutely the right and only person who should have the Swords, which are just as important as Bob, and which are at greater risk?  Personally, I think that his emotional reaction is because being the custodian of the swords means something to him.  Bob, he acknowledges, is just a very powerful tool that’s dangerous in the wrong hands.  Harry has a sort of respect for the swords and all it represents, and it hurts to be told he's not worthy anymore. 

However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG.  The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it.  Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.

E. Sanya, a Knight of the Cross, says that someone who is sure they should have the Swords is not someone who should have the Swords. Harry, in Cold Days, is sure he should have the Swords. Is Sanya wrong?  Sanya’s human, and the most junior of the Knights.  It’s kind of like the old cliché – anyone with a desire for power or leadership has proven that they’re not fit to wield it.  I think that these words of Sanya’s aren’t some sort of hard-and-fast code of “What must one do to be a custodian of the Swords?” but rather him stating his personal opinion: “Look, the fact that you’re second-guessing this means that you respect the danger and will not abuse it.”  And yes, that’s my opinion, but I feel that it’s sound.

Offline magnuskn

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #127 on: August 16, 2017, 10:06:07 PM »
D. How is Harry correct in his assessment that in his state of mind and situation he should give Bob back, but thirty seconds later, he's suddenly absolutely the right and only person who should have the Swords, which are just as important as Bob, and which are at greater risk?  Personally, I think that his emotional reaction is because being the custodian of the swords means something to him.  Bob, he acknowledges, is just a very powerful tool that’s dangerous in the wrong hands.  Harry has a sort of respect for the swords and all it represents, and it hurts to be told he's not worthy anymore. 

However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG.  The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it.  Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.

Two things:

- Saying that Harry only views Bob as a useful tool and has no emotional attachments to him is insane.
- If the TWG decided that Murphy was an unworthy custodian of the swords, do you really believe that they would have left them in her care for two years? They have one active knight who could have come over at any time and taken them. And I don't think Murphy would have second-guessed Sanya for a nanosecond if that would have been the case, since he gets his marching orders directly from the Big Guy.

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #128 on: August 16, 2017, 11:19:50 PM »
Yes, I do think that they wouldn't interfere. The swords are subject to the Free Will of mankind. We have the free will to use them or break them. Uriel's accounting of the results of those choices lead to the conclusion of SG.

Edit: oops, sorry, I forgot to even address the first thing in my haste. It would be insane claim that Dresden feels no emotional attachment to Bob. Dresden states that Bob is his friend, even though he's not a human and it is unprofessional to treat him as anything other than an assistant. However, being the possessor of Bob does not mean anything other than that you hold the skull. It doesn't mean that some divine power has looked upon you and found you worthy. Heck, Kemmler had the skull, and Justin, and we know what wonderful people they are.  Michael, and the nights, and TWS's faith in Harry is what always gives him the hope that he isn't going to fall into darkness. And when Karrin says that he shouldn't have the swords anymore, it rips that hope away from him.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 03:58:52 AM by DonBugen »

Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #129 on: August 17, 2017, 12:03:45 AM »
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Anyways, to answer your questions:
And, again: Is instant violence the kind of response that the rightful custodian of the Swords should have?  Depends.  Michael knew that Harry was the keeper of the sword of Faith in the same time period that he knew that he had touched a coin and was under a Fallen’s influence.  Yet Michael never stepped in and took the sword from him.  I think that Michael defers to the judgment of higher powers rather than his own, and I don’t think that the servants of TWG are as swayed by momentary actions as much as the heart and choice of the individual.  They also have a different perspective than the average mortal.

Very true, and what is missed here is it isn't so much a judgement on whether Murphy was right or wrong not to trust Harry in that moment, but just a stated fact that she didn't trust him, end of story..

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Tell me what text in the books indicates Murphy is "manipulating" him. Tell me what text in the books indicates that Harry should have the Swords in that time and place.  Of course, you know that it never explicitly says that Harry should have had the swords in the text of the book.  The only one who can determine who *should* have the swords is TWG, and we only see his will as expressed through his servants.  Uriel can be trusted to reflect his master’s will; Michael, to a lesser extent – he is human, after all.  But it is to be noted that both Michael and Uriel both act with faith and trust in Harry, and so far that faith and trust has not been misplaced.  Harry’s actions, while out of character, are completely in character of someone under the power of the Winter Mantle.  The only thing out of character are the choices that Harry makes.

At the end of Changes the Swords are handed over by Sanya to Harry.. page 432 as he hands Amoracchius over to Harry..

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Uriel placed it in your care.  If he wanted it moved, he should say so."

Then at the end of Skin Game Michael hands over Amoracchius over to Harry saying he is it's keeper again.. Also explaining about Murphy when Harry questions whether or not he is the right guy to be it's keeper..  page 452 Michael says

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She appointed herself the Swords' keeper after you apparently died. 

But Heaven knew perfectly well that Harry wasn't dead at that time.. No one from Heaven appointed Murphy, keeper, she took that on upon herself, and didn't do that great a job of it..
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C. Why is Murphy slammed for hiding something from Dresden, while Dresden is not at all criticized for hiding information from Murphy? The information they're hiding is for the same reasons, and neither intended on telling the other that something was hidden.  Don’t remember slamming Murphy for this, so maybe someone else can handle this one.

Not the same thing, Harry did keep the facts about Mr Grey from Murphy... However I think it was also pointed out that her house was not a secured spot.. Only Demonreach or a spot with blocks put on by Mab would be safe from Adriel's eavesdropping..  The mission depended on Mr Grey's double agent status, so yeah, he had to keep that from her, he kept it from Michael... Not at all the same thing as her telling him the Swords cannot be used, Harry thinks one is needed.. Telling him she knows because she has faith implying that he didn't.  Saying she had no desire to be a Knight for the mission because she doesn't believe in redemption for Denarians...  But then she proceeds to conceal the Sword and take it with her, after her speech on the subject had to have reached Nic..  She says nothing to Harry about this, and proceeds to get it broken...
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However, whether or not Harry thinks he is a good custodian of the sword is irrelevant – the only one who can really have an opinion on who should and should not be a custodian is TWG.  The swords have been awarded to Harry despite his flaws and darker nature on many occasions, not because he’s some sort of paragon of virtue, but because higher beings on some other plane of existence see it fit that he should have it.  Murphy and Dresden are second-guessing those beings, and Dresden's assertion that they were given to him is an assertion of that higher power.

Yes, the Swords have consistently been given into Harry's care by Holy Knights, Sanya, Shiro, Michael and at least once on orders from Uriel..  In contrast, Harry merely told Murphy where the Swords could be found if she needed to use one of them.. All that says he trusts her to be a Knight if need be.. Though even at that point she said she didn't want the job.  When she thought Harry was dead as confirmed by Michael and even hinted on by Uriel, she merely took it upon herself to fetch them..  Now she may have been right to do that, but even so she was never appointed their keeper by anyone..
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E. Sanya, a Knight of the Cross, says that someone who is sure they should have the Swords is not someone who should have the Swords. Harry, in Cold Days, is sure he should have the Swords. Is Sanya wrong?  Sanya’s human, and the most junior of the Knights.  It’s kind of like the old cliché – anyone with a desire for power or leadership has proven that they’re not fit to wield it.  I think that these words of Sanya’s aren’t some sort of hard-and-fast code of “What must one do to be a custodian of the Swords?” but rather him stating his personal opinion: “Look, the fact that you’re second-guessing this means that you respect the danger and will not abuse it.”  And yes, that’s my opinion, but I feel that it’s sound.

Harry expressed those doubts in Changes, he had just killed the mother of his child and wiped out a whole species..  Sanya was agreeing that he should have doubts, but Sanya also trusted in Uriel's judgement, "if he wanted it moved, he'd say so."
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A. Is nearly punching your friend and ally's head off because you're angry the proper behavior for a custodian of the Swords of the Cross?  Dunno.  See above.  Merlin wasn’t a saint, and Michael was OK with Harry carrying both a coin and a sword.  I would loosely say that whether or not a person should carry a sword seems to be something that is not directly related to their personal code of conduct.
True, at best Sanya is an agnostic yet he is also a Holy Knight.. 
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B. Why is Butters exempt from any criticism for his clear distrust of Dresden, which directly led to the Sword being broken?  He’s not.  But the same fear and distrust that Butters puts voice to is the same exact fear and distrust that Murph voices in her entrance and exit from Cold Days.  It’s not that Butters is exempt from it; it’s that Murph is also not exempt from it.  And my WAG puts suspicion on Murphy because despite her sudden realization and faith and trust in Harry, the results of her actions are negative.  Nothing more.

Yes, this is why I said you can take Murphy away from the police force, but you cannot take the cop out of Murphy.  In many ways she isn't unlike Lt Murphy in the first couple of books, she used Harry, she admired Harry, but she never completely trusted him..  Post Changes given what has gone down with Harry, she doesn't completely trust that he won't turn into a monster.. But Harry doesn't trust himself on that score either, but Michael does trust that he won't.
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You're acting like Murphy is making some kind of power play, when that's not the case.  I’m saying that she’s doing her best to protect everyone she knows by limiting the amount of damage Harry could do.  And she’s using her trust and loyalty as the lever to get Dresden to listen to her.  Yeah, if my WAG is correct then it could also be some sort of dark play to get the swords in custody and destroy one in a totally legit manner, but that’s a WAG.

This may be true, my problem with Murphy is she doesn't listen to Harry... She has a lot to say to him but asks no questions.. In a way this is manipulation..
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Michael soulgazed Harry more than a decade ago. A lot has changed in Harry's life since then.  True, but remember that the soulgaze is a view of a person’s fundamental self, and Harry has stated more than once that if a person has changed drastically since them they would trigger a new soulgaze.

Yes, plus the fact that Michael's connections would know if Harry had gone south..
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Tell me how putting her trust in Harry is "letting fear and doubts" guide her.  Because she’s not trusting Harry.  She doesn’t trust that he won’t turn evil – she doesn’t get that until Skin Game.  At this point, she’s just at the ‘wait and see’ stage.  She gives Harry a limited amount of trust IF he also surrenders these articles of power to her.
Exactly, Murphy doesn't fully trust Harry, that is not a judgement of her one way or the other..
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I’m not ignoring that Dresden’s going through some really dark stuff.  I know how close he is to violence.  I know that he relies on his friends to point him in the right direction.  But he also relies on them to believe in him.  I know you keep telling me to “reread Cold Days” or “reread Skin Game” – I know these books; it’s not inexperience that’s giving me this viewpoint, despite the large difference in our postcounts on this online forum.  And Karrin taking the swords and Bob at this point is a clear display that she just doesn’t have faith in him to not turn bad at some point in the future.  It’s as simple as that.

Again, all true, and again a mere observation, not a judgement of her... The consequences of her lack of faith remains to be seen..

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #130 on: August 17, 2017, 03:44:44 AM »
Murphy worked with Marcone, not for him. Just as the US and the British worked with Stalin against Hitler. Sometimes you can't choose your allies.

Yeah, but...when the alliance is unequal enough, it starts to look a lot like a patron/client relationship.  I'm sure Karrin would say she merely worked with the lesser evil against the greater, and believe it because she needs to believe it, but...

Marcone puts up the money that lets the Chicago Alliance operate.
Marcone provides access to the supernatural backup they require (via Monoc).
It's the threat of Marcone's vengeance that keeps their supernatural enemies from coming after Karrin's family.
Etc.

Butters understood the nature of the relationship more clearly then Karrin was willing to, at least in Ghost Story.  He knew that Marcone was the real Final Authority over the Alliance's actions, not Karrin.

It's fair to say that Karrin doesn't work for Marcone..quite.  But their alliance is far from equal.

Offline LordDresden2

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #131 on: August 17, 2017, 04:05:33 AM »
Titania was apparently fairly close to Aurora, and best evidence puts her nemfection at GP timeframe at the latest. 


Do we know that Aurora was Nemfected?  Has JB confirmed that?


Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #132 on: August 17, 2017, 05:02:33 AM »
Do we know that Aurora was Nemfected?  Has JB confirmed that?

There might be a WOJ that confirms it, but I haven't seen it..  However I am not the keeper of the WOJs.   It is a logical deduction given her behavior, unless of course she was just flat out insane.

Offline KurtinStGeorge

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #133 on: August 17, 2017, 06:34:17 AM »
  I think some are thinking that it is a right or a wrong with whether or not Murphy trust Harry totally..  It is clear that she doesn't... She may have had good reasons considering the Winter Mantle and all, but her not giving the Swords back to Harry and the issue of Bob, says she doesn't... End of story.. Harry gives into her because he completely trust her judgement..  He trusts her judgement so much that it makes him question everything about himself. 

Again, her reasons for not trusting Harry may have been good, she still doesn't trust him as of Skin Game, because she still won't release the Swords to Harry's care, though their custody was something she took upon herself, yet she implies that it was handed to her by divine judgement, with a dig that she knows because she has faith and Harry doesn't.  Now this doesn't make her a bad person, she may have been totally right not to completely trust Harry because of what he had been though... But while those issues remained, and they did up until the shattering of the Sword, love or no love, in spite of what she said to Butters about complete trust,  Murphy did not completely trust Harry..  Either she was lying to Butters to make him feel better, or something worse.. She does trust Harry completely but has her own agenda..  It may not be all that sinister either, she may have wanted to keep control of the Swords because she felt that she was losing influence.

I have to take issue with the part I highlighted.  If you are just referring to Harry's behavior in Cold Days, you may have a point though one I don't entirely agree with, but long before the events in CD Harry has questioned himself for a long time without Murphy's help.  Now, if you are specifically referring to Harry deferring to Murphy's judgement in Cold Days, remember that before Murphy appeared in the story Harry was wondering why he was having graphic violent and sexual thoughts and images popping into his brain when he was dealing with Andi, Molly and Lily.  So whatever Murphy's motives were, she wasn't simply expressing her own opinion and Harry just gave in because he trusts her, she was expressing concerns that were already starting to take shape in Harry's mind.
Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.

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Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #134 on: August 17, 2017, 11:23:03 AM »
I have to take issue with the part I highlighted.  If you are just referring to Harry's behavior in Cold Days, you may have a point though one I don't entirely agree with, but long before the events in CD Harry has questioned himself for a long time without Murphy's help.  Now, if you are specifically referring to Harry deferring to Murphy's judgement in Cold Days, remember that before Murphy appeared in the story Harry was wondering why he was having graphic violent and sexual thoughts and images popping into his brain when he was dealing with Andi, Molly and Lily.  So whatever Murphy's motives were, she wasn't simply expressing her own opinion and Harry just gave in because he trusts her, she was expressing concerns that were already starting to take shape in Harry's mind.
I don't disagree with that actually, and Harry was questioning what was happening to him before she said anything.  The reality in Cold Days was any normal urge or reaction suddenly became on steroids because of the mantle..  Normal sexual attraction to a woman became a sudden urge to rape etc..  Normal upset became an anger management problem etc..  I don't question Murphy's motives at all there.  What I had a problem with then, and more so in Skin Game is she goes into an almost preaching mode, or yeah, a preaching mode telling Harry his problems and why he is doing this or that.  No questions and no listening on her part.  She does this because she thinks she knows Harry that well and she thinks she understands what he is doing..  But she is wrong because since Changes everything has changed with Harry.

  When he goes to see her in Skin Game after being on the island for a year, she goes into he stayed out there because he wanted to isolate himself from his friends and avoid his daughter.. Well, while she is right about his fear of meeting his daughter for the first time, that wasn't the reason he was there.  Since she had visited him a few times she may have or should have picked up on why he couldn't leave..  While she is well meaning in all of that it isn't all that helpful, and because Harry trusts her implicitly and a series of other events take place he ends up at Michael's house tied in knots and in tears..  He is hurt physically true, but his main malady are his fears and his more or less one sided conversations with Murphy made him believe most of them.  Michael on the other hand while and after he set Harry's arm, asked pointed questions and patiently listened to Harry's answers, revealing a lot of them.. 

« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 02:06:42 PM by Mira »