Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)

[jonas]

Folks, the bottom line is that Jim can't keep Harry happy for long.  If he's finally started up a relationship with Murph, then she can't be long for this world.

I actually really, REALLY like this Valkyrie (or at least einherjar) theory. It's the kind of foreshadowing that fits Jim. Oddly, I don't think that her Catholicism would be a barrier, mostly because we've slowly been seeing her faith being worn down. Dresden's Sight of her in White Night, for example, is far more tattered than in GP, and she's had the world ripped away from her several times. She may not realize it yet, but I think that Dresden's death and the aftermath fundamentally changed her - no longer capable of welding the Sword, but still believing she could.

To be honest, in this "God is like three blind men describing an elephant" world, I think that Dresden is by far more the follower of TWG than Karrin is. And that's my two cents, controversial as it may be.

Mwahahaha! Break it down farther, just go farther!
And she totally knew she couldn't wield it, she just didn't see other choices at the time.

[Mira]

This is the key point I don't see discussed all that much.  The blow to Murphy at the end of Skin Game was profound, and has come on top of a long series of blows.  As others have noted, she can't hang... not on the physical level that she's spent so much time training for.  And now she's physically broken, and has taken a huge guilt hit by being the catalyst that destroyed one of the holy swords.  Yes, it got remade almost immediately, but it's human nature to feel a huge sense of personal failure for the first event.  Physically broken, morally broken, all of her lifelong personality anchors ripped away.  When I finished Skin Game I thought for sure she was being set up to be tempted by a Coin, given how bad of a place she was going to be in.

Sure, she can do all of these roles that folks are postulating... but look at it from the point of view of her character.  What can she do from the depths of the despair that's *got* to be crushing in on her after the events of SG?  JB can write this sooo many ways...

Agreed on most of your points, let her go out in a blaze of glory..  Her impact will be long lasting in any case.

[wardenferry419]

Maybe, by the end of the series, the WC is restructured to give leadership roles based more on merit and ability and less on age and influence. Yet, I don't see Harry as the face of the organization like the Merlin; more like the scary big dog called Blackstaff.

[LordDresden2]

In the normal course of events, you are absolutely right.  Harry would need to be several hundred years old before he could ever be a senior council member, much less the Merlin.  But the rules change in a major crisis (political or survival).  Very dramatic changes can occur in how people are governed in a very short period of time.  If the leadership if the white council is disgraced and/or dead, and the white council as a whole faces the very real possibility of eminent destruction, then very dramatic changes in leadership are very possible.

In that scenario, Harry Dresden can be a very attractive leader.  It was Harry to revealed the corruption of members of the senior council (speculating).  It was Harry who had the power to destroy the Red Court and save the White council.  Harry has close alliances with several powerful supernatural nations.  It was Harry who even the Senior Council and old Merlin feared.   It was Harry who people whisper was born to fight the outsiders.  It was Harry who is the poster child for the younger wizards -- who seems able to navigate the modern world with ease.  It was Harry who founded the Paranet to save wizards.  It was Harry whose deeds are legend within the White Council.  The old leaders have failed.  People are scared.  It is quite possible that Harry gets enough support to take the position, especially if the other candidates are uninspiring or proven to be traitors and Harry gets endorsed by a few old and respected wizards like Gatekeeper. 

Yes there is no way he would win against McCoy or Luccio, but he could win against noticeably less impressive candidates.  It may not even be close.

Sure.  In such a case, I could easily see Harry leading the Council in his 50s (which would be about the time of the BAT if the series time-rate holds).  Temporarily.  For the duration of the crisis, like a naval lieutenant taking command of a vessel because the captain, exec, and the rest of the higher officers are dead or incapacitated.  It's highly improbable that such a lieutenant would be allowed to retain command after the emergency passed, though if he performed well he might be promoted.

To use the Star Trek example again, at the end of the first reboot movie, Recently Cadet Kirk is promoted from new-graduated ensign to full Captain and given command of the Enterprise, after leading the ship through a crisis successfully.  The further excuse is that most of the senior officers were killed in the crisis.

It still didn't make sense.  Kirk might have been promoted in such a situation, yes.  Maybe jump a couple of grades.  But even if all the serving captains were dead, rather than put a green ensign in permanent command, they'd bring a retiree out of reserve or something, because Kirk has so little experience.

Likewise, I can't see a brevet command for Harry as being permanent, not at his age...unless all the older Wizards are dead, in which case Harry would be the new Merlin by default.

[LordDresden2]

Maybe, by the end of the series, the WC is restructured to give leadership roles based more on merit and ability and less on age and influence. Yet, I don't see Harry as the face of the organization like the Merlin; more like the scary big dog called Blackstaff.

Merit and ability scale with age and influence, past a certain point.  Yeah, a young person can be better at leadership than an older...but it's usually not the case.  Ability and skill and power and education and brains are not a substitute for experience.  Nothing can substitute for experience.

(I have a sneaking suspicion that part of the root of Margaret's downfall was her refusal to accept the reality of that.)

So even if the Council loosens the age requirements, it's not likely to have its seniormost leadership positions held by newbies, except maybe in freak emergencies.

[LordDresden2]

Folks, the bottom line is that Jim can't keep Harry happy for long.  If he's finally started up a relationship with Murph, then she can't be long for this world.

Good meta-point.

Also...Harry asked Murphy if she might be interested in a romantic relationship, way back in the series, and refused, and her reasons were by no means trivial or silly.  The life-span difference (that just keeps cropping up, and for good reason), her own desire for kids and the fact that she's not getting any younger, etc.

Now it's ten years later, or close enough.  If Karrin wants to be a mother herself, her window of time is very rapidly closing.  Even if she's given up on that, her comments to Harry in Cold Days remain all too on target.  She has a track record of failed relationships, worse than Harry's.  Harry doesn't do 'casual' well, as Karrin pointed out, he just about crashed and burned after Susan's departure (though in fairness that would have made most people freak out).

And now probably the 800 pound gorilla, again as Karrin pointed out, is Molly.  Harry keeps saying there's nothing there and not going to be...but at this point I think he's mainly fooling himself.  It's becoming pretty obvious to the people that know them that Molly is still in love with Harry, and now she's pushing thirty, she's not a little girl or even a starry-eyed teenager anymore.  I don't think anybody but Harry is fooled by Harry's denials that there is something mutual there.

It may never come to anything, of course, but it's there...and Molly has a lifespan, interests, powers, and so on that mesh remarkably well with Harry's.  Karrin sees that.  She'd be foolish to pretend it isn't there.

I can't shake the sense that the time for a Harry/Karrin romance, if there was going to be one, was probably about ten books ago.  Harry was personality-wise better suited to Karrin ten years ago than he is now, the time factor was not quite so bad, Harry's life was more on the same scale of action as Karrin's.

Now, I can't shake the sense of watching a car-crash in slow motion.

[Mira]

I can't shake the sense that the time for a Harry/Karrin romance, if there was going to be one, was probably about ten books ago.  Harry was personality-wise better suited to Karrin ten years ago than he is now, the time factor was not quite so bad, Harry's life was more on the same scale of action as Karrin's.

  This ^ I believe you've hit on the most important point, and I totally agree.  Back in Proven Guilty when Harry asked her and she refused, though he was a wizard and her points for refusal that you went over were valid, it may still have worked for the very fact that Harry was very much an ordinary Joe..   He isn't any longer, Murphy understood the Harry of Proven Guilty, she no longer understands him.  Murphy got the power/wizard aspect of Harry, but he still loved Coke and a Burger King, he was just a decent ordinary guy..  Basically he still is that decent guy, but  Harry is the Winter Knight, Warden of Demonreach, a Warden of the White Council, a star child, custodian of the Holy Swords and now keeper of relics of vast power, he can never be the Harry she knew before Changes again.  Reread those opening chapters of Skin Game, she voices her concern for that ordinary guy, but he doesn't exist anymore, he has priorities now that she cannot understand.  He can no longer always be there for either her or his friends, he has other responsibilities now, and a lot is riding on how he handles them.

[Rasins]

  This ^ I believe you've hit on the most important point, and I totally agree.  Back in Proven Guilty when Harry asked her and she refused, though he was a wizard and her points for refusal that you went over were valid, it may still have worked for the very fact that Harry was very much an ordinary Joe..   He isn't any longer, Murphy understood the Harry of Proven Guilty, she no longer understands him.  Murphy got the power/wizard aspect of Harry, but he still loved Coke and a Burger King, he was just a decent ordinary guy..  Basically he still is that decent guy, but  Harry is the Winter Knight, Warden of Demonreach, a Warden of the White Council, a star child, custodian of the Holy Swords and now keeper of relics of vast power, he can never be the Harry she knew before Changes again.  Reread those opening chapters of Skin Game, she voices her concern for that ordinary guy, but he doesn't exist anymore, he has priorities now that she cannot understand.  He can no longer always be there for either her or his friends, he has other responsibilities now, and a lot is riding on how he handles them.

And I think this will be the very root of the Angst that Jim will write for Harry. 

I think they'll be together for awhile, but other stuff will get in the way, and eventually Murph will either leave or be taken (like by the Librarians).

[Smaug with OCD]

And I think this will be the very root of the Angst that Jim will write for Harry. 

I think they'll be together for awhile, but other stuff will get in the way, and eventually Murph will either leave or be taken (like by the Librarians).

Wasn't there a WoJ about the Librarians thinking all magic is evil with a capital 'E' and as a result, they were partially behind Murph's career crashing and burning because of her friendship with Dresden? I unfortunately don't have the time to look up if my memory is accurate or not(I have a road trip in two hours), so I shall politely invoke the quote gods and request: Could you please find it for me, oh mighty and powerful lords of the obscure quotes? Masters of the arcane confirmations by Jim! Most devoted fans of the Butcher's work! Your humble servant begs your aid, and provides a shameless bribe in the form of internet cookies!

( : : )  ( : : )  ( : : )  ( : : )  ( : : )

[Rasins]

Wasn't there a WoJ about the Librarians thinking all magic is evil with a capital 'E' and as a result, they were partially behind Murph's career crashing and burning because of her friendship with Dresden? I unfortunately don't have the time to look up if my memory is accurate or not(I have a road trip in two hours), so I shall politely invoke the quote gods and request: Could you please find it for me, oh mighty and powerful lords of the obscure quotes? Masters of the arcane confirmations by Jim! Most devoted fans of the Butcher's work! Your humble servant begs your aid, and provides a shameless bribe in the form of internet cookies!

( : : )  ( : : )  ( : : )  ( : : )  ( : : )

Smaug,

In this summoning, you do need to name them.

Oh Serack and Schecky, please enlighten us.

[magnuskn]

Which would be worse for her if she is a devote Catholic as you say because she'd be an instrument of a pagan religion.

With whom she had no problems interacting (sparring and the like), so, yeah. Her religion is a complicated issue. I don't want to her to stay dead and out of the story, anyway, so I'm all for her going Valkyrie. If she really dies, that is.

[Rasins]

With whom she had no problems interacting (sparring and the like), so, yeah. Her religion is a complicated issue. I don't want to her to stay dead and out of the story, anyway, so I'm all for her going Valkyrie. If she really dies, that is.

Just to be clear, if she goes Valkyrie, she's then a chooser of the dead and she's likely out of the story doing her job elsewhere in the world.

On the other hand, she could be chosen to be an Einherjar.  Then she could continue to train with the other Einherjar in the BFS.

[raidem]

I don't recall a woj that says that. 

I do recall bits and pieces of what you mentioned.

There are librarians. The muggles don't look kindly upon the magical world. I don't recall the bit about them and Murphy's job.

[jonas]

Just to be clear, if she goes Valkyrie, she's then a chooser of the dead and she's likely out of the story doing her job elsewhere in the world.

On the other hand, she could be chosen to be an Einherjar.  Then she could continue to train with the other Einherjar in the BFS.

I think, she's just going to become more of what she already is... Bamf!

*I do remember a woj about the shadow organization being responsible, don't think it was 'librarians' directly though, but if they're associated more or less...

[Mira]

With whom she had no problems interacting (sparring and the like), so, yeah. Her religion is a complicated issue. I don't want to her to stay dead and out of the story, anyway, so I'm all for her going Valkyrie. If she really dies, that is.

Interacting is a different ball of wax from becoming.  Michael interacted with the likes of Mab, yet Molly is afraid to tell him she is Winter Lady now..  It is a matter of belief and the soul.