Author Topic: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)  (Read 86346 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #360 on: September 05, 2017, 05:47:39 PM »
Dangit, Arjan, that's what quote marks and commas are for, I had to read your first sentence like six times before I understood it :P

Don: My best estimation for why the Genoskwa doesn't continue crushing Harry's skull once Fid breaks is, well, the Genoskwa is probably no more immune to being shocked than any of the rest of us are. He just saw one of the Swords of the Cross break; anyone who's anyone in the supernatural world knows what the Swords are, and that them breaking is a big deal. Just like a turkey-meteorite slamming into a vampire, it's not something you see twice.

As for Nicodemus not having Harry killed immediately after, he's focused entirely and directly on Karrin until Michael comes out, and Michael is a bigger prize to him than Harry and Murphy combined. He is poised to kill Murphy, and Michael's first words in the conversation are "Let them go."

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“I know,” Michael said. “But you’re going to let them go.”
 
“And why should I do that?”
 
“Because if you do,” Michael said, “I’ll walk out this gate.”
 
Even where I was, I could almost see the blaze of hatred that flared out of Nicodemus’s eyes. His shadow went insane, flickering from side to side, surging up the white picket fence like an incoming tide chewing at a stone cliff.

It's like giving a steak bone to a dog. It doesn't matter if the dog had a perfectly good biscuit in his mouth already. He wants that bone and has forgotten for the moment that most of the rest of the world, including biscuits, even exists. (Source: Have a dog, if you give her a steak bone, the house could burn down around her and she wouldn't notice)

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“Now, then,” Nicodemus said to Michael. His sword had never ceased pointing at Karrin’s heart. “If I release this pair, you will step through that gate?”
 
Michael nodded once. “I will. You have my word.”
 
Nicodemus’s eyes glittered. He looked up at the Genoskwa and nodded, and suddenly I was on the ground, untouched, with the giant thing looming over me.
So the long and short of it is that Nicodemus apparently did intend to kill Harry and Murphy -- this intent is apparent enough that Michael sure seems to think he needs to sacrifice himself for them both -- but Nic considered Michael a much better prize. A good enough prize that he apparently intends to actually honor Michael's bargain of letting Harry and Murphy go.

After that, Michael is fresh and has the Sword of Love in his hands and Dresden is standing next to him, ready to throw down again. While Nicodemus might be able to win a straight up fight, since he still has the Genoskwa on his side, he apparently doesn't think it worth the risk -- but it takes him a moment to consider it.

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“Two of you,” I said to Nicodemus. “Two of us. What do you think, Nick?”
 
Michael faced him squarely, both hands on the hilt of Amoracchius. The Sword’s light filled the air—and Nicodemus’s shadow quailed before it.
 
Nicodemus finally stood back. He lowered his blade and said, “Dresden. I expect you back at our headquarters by four a.m.” He turned to go.

So seeing the odds have changed in a way he hadn't expected, he folds that last hand, cashes his chips, and walks away with his winnings.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #361 on: September 05, 2017, 06:49:11 PM »
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Nicodemus doesn’t have to appeal to Mab in order to off a traitor.  He doesn’t have to demand Harry’s execution, for example, because he worked against Nicodemus and essentially stained Mab’s honor.  When Mab repays a debt, it is repaid.

We are talking in terms of threat to the mission, that Butters knew too much... He knew just as much post Sword shattering as pre-Sword shattering... His threat to the mission by informing someone about it hadn't changed at all..  Still once the Sword was shattered, he didn't seem to matter to Nic anymore. that is the point..  It screams ruse because nothing about Butters or what he knew changed...
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In this case, you argue that the fact that Nicodemus doesn’t immediately appeal to Mab is conspicuous.  The Genoskwa does immediately attack after Harry’s action, followed by the fight.  He does an extremely excellent and brutal job of almost executing Dresden, and the only reason that the execution is not carried out is because Karrin has Nicodemus trapped, who commands the Genoskwa to hold.  I do not see this as conspicuous; this is the way that the situation would logically play out if both Denarians recognized this as the moment that all bets were off.

Not really,  actually it was all part of the ruse....  Nic does tell Geno to hold, but not because Murphy has him cornered... He then surrenders his noose and coin, and she orders him to order Geno to release Harry, Nic doesn't.. She orders him again and Nic in turn orders Geno to crush Harry's skull..  Then Nic gets snarky in a very reasonable tone of voice, he has surrendered she knows what she must do as a Knight, save him for redemption.  He was clearly goading her... Again though he was applying pressure to Harry's skull it was taking more time than it should of to crush it... 

Harry realized what Nic was pulling, tried to warn Murphy not to fall for the ploy, but Geno prevented any words from  coming out.  Murphy acted and the Sword shattered... Nic beat the snot out of her, and Geno released Harry... His goal achieved, shattered Holy Sword.
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This is the one argument that you’re making that I thinks makes the most sense, and I can’t reconcile with huangjimmy’s and Mr. Death’s logic.  And to be clear guys, I *do* still think that the Death/Jimmy version of events makes more sense.  But I was hoping that either Mr. Death or huangjimmy might be able to address this one directly, to clear it up, because I just can't think of how this makes sense.

Because it does make the most sense...  It is the only logical thing that makes sense, either Butters was a true threat or he wasn't, none of the events surrounding that changes anything...  Apparently he wasn't..

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Normally at this point, I would include a quote from Skin Game, but the particular section I want to reference just is far too long.  From the moment that Fidelacchius is shattered to the moment that Michael steps out of his house, there is an extraordinarily long period of time in which the Genoskwa is doing nothing but just holding Harry’s head tightly.  He’s not torturing him, he’s not banging him around, and he’s certainly not increasing pressure.  Harry describes the Genoskwa’s grip two separate times in this period, and both times he talks about how he just can’t do a thing to Gen – not how Gen responds with pain, like he did when trying to warn Murphy earlier.  Harry never says a thing about pain at all; at most, he just says that he sees things through a red haze.

But that is the whole point, if Geno was really going to kill Harry, squish like a grape, just that quick... He didn't... Further after Nic surrenders to Murphy and she demands that he order Geno to let Harry go.... He not only refuses to, he orders Harry dead....

"Nicodemus smiled and smiled, and said, "Crush his skull.  Make it hurt.."

This is the last straw, and Nic knows it, it sets Murphy off and she proceeds to "damn you" and execution... Only that doesn't happen, the Holy Sword becomes a mere weapon and is shattered on the frozen cement... 

Now ask yourself, why would Geno disobey a direct order from his leader, Nicodemus to crush Harry's skull on the spot?  Answer, he wouldn't... So that is even more proof that the intent all along was to goad Murphy into breaking a Sword.. It wasn't to kill Butters because he was some threat to the mission because he knew too much... Because after the Sword broke he knew just as much but his staying alive didn't seem to be an issue anymore... 

Harry's skull wasn't crushed, it could easily have been, but it wasn't... Nothing changed about Harry either before and after the Sword shattering... Nic still wanted him dead, but not until he had made full use of him down at the vault..

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Could either of you respond to this specific point?  If Nicodemus was in his rights to kill Harry at this point, there was no further proof needed to Mab to demonstrate his betrayal, and the Genoskwa was really honestly going to kill him, then what’s with Gen’s relative pacifism while watching Nicodemus gloat?

Because it was all an elaborate ruse to get a Sword broken.  The answer is no, Geno honestly wasn't going to kill Harry at that point.  If he were, Harry wouldn't have survived, end of story..  As Nic gloated on page 245 First he says he needed to put a little pressure on Murphy... Then he says, I repeat..

"Why it was no more an attempt to kill you than was your participation in the chase of the little doctor a betrayal of Mab's word that you'd aid me."

There is no mystery really, it is all pretty straight forward, Nic is a liar, but he is also very clever, he has access to almost everything going on around him thanks to Andriel, it isn't that difficult to see how he could set up Murphy with the unwitting help of Butters to achieve one his goals, to break a Holy Sword..  Just because he can....

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #362 on: September 05, 2017, 07:39:29 PM »
There’s one other hole in the “Nicodemus was trying to kill them after Butters moved into the yard” theory that I can’t internally reconcile.  I know you’ve addressed this, but I’ve both re-read the passage and re-listened to Marsters several times.  And I just don’t see it.  This exchange just doesn’t make sense to me under the assumption that Nicodemus was really trying to kill them all.  Mr. Death, Jimmy – I know I’m asking a lot, but if you could address my concerns on this passage, then I think that I can patch the holes I see in the “Kill Dresden” theory. 

It comes down to this passage.  The surrounding bits, of course, too – but mostly this bit.
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By Mab’s reckoning, I was pretty sure, Nicodemus and I had played this one out evenly.  My actions in protecting Butters could be explained as bad luck and sincere incompetence. Nicodemus’s attempt to kill me could be explained as a ploy to destroy the Sword.
So Uriel tells Harry to get him a bit of time, and so the first words Harry utters after being released from the Genoskwa’s grip is an accusation to Nicodemus that he broke Mab’s truce agreement.  Nick responds by essentially saying that he didn’t actually break the contract, because Harry was never really in danger.

I really don’t get this.  It just doesn’t make sense to me.  If the truce was already broken due to Dresden's actions, why wouldn’t Nicodemus state that?  Instead of defending his just actions by saying that he wasn't doing them in the first place?

That’s where I come to hunangjimmy’s “quid pro quo” argument, and the passage that I quoted.  Because if the answer here is that Nick is in the right to kill Harry because Harry was took actions to protect Butters, then there is no quid pro quo.  Harry broke the agreement.  End of story.  Nicodemus doesn’t need to respond saying “it was all just a ploy to destroy the sword” because no defense is necessary.  He doesn’t even need it as a logical argument in order to continue with the heist as if nothing had happened, because he essentially agreed to release Karrin and Harry from retribution in Michael’s offer.

In this example, the plain-text reading that I see is that Dresden is cursing Nicodemus for his cleverness.  Nicodemus avoids being accused of breaking the truce claiming that Harry wasn’t in danger, and Harry avoids being accused of breaking the truce because his actions can be chalked up to incompetence and bad luck.  Thus Nicodemus avoids the accusation of betrayal.

Again, the only way that I can figure this logic chain makes sense is if both Harry aiding Waldo to escape and Nicodemus killing Harry would be breaches of contract if they occurred.  And the only way for that to be the case is if Harry had not yet broken the agreement when Nicodemus tried to kill him.  If Harry helping Waldo escape did give Nicodemus the excuse he needed to kill Harry, then there’s no need for him to defend himself.  It only makes sense if there’s at least some ambiguity.

I know that it can be argued that in this passage, Harry is only thinking about the pursuit through the city, and not about the final forzare.  Nicodemus, after all, refers to this action as “your pursuit.”  However, a plain reading of this would prove the same thing:  if Harry had broken the truce already, Nicodemus' actions were not treacherous.  They would be the calculated act of removing a traitor from the job.

And there’s one last thing.  This, I want to really request that you answer thoroughly.  Your argument had convinced me mostly due to your argument about how Mab wouldn’t admit that her knight was behaving incompetently in this situation.  If that was the case, then why does Harry still believe that Mab would reckon that Harry’s actions could be explained as incompetence?  If Mab just couldn’t admit that her chosen Knight had trouble with one-hit killing a puny mortal, then why is this any sort of defense at all?  Harry knows Mab and what she would consider a breach of contract.  He knows her probably better than any mortal alive.

I’m not trying to argue one side over the other.  But I see the holes on both sides, and it is this exchange and the Genoskwa’s lack of action that still tell me that there’s more to the situation than meets the eye.



Oh – I just saw your earlier response.  I hear what you say about being shocked about the sword breaking.  But being five minutes’ worth of shocked?  The frozen turkey meteor only caused every single combatant to freeze, stunned, then resume fighting.  At the very least, I think that it’s likely that Nicodemus gave some prior instruction for no one to kill Dresden but him, just so that he had complete control over the situation and wouldn’t suddenly lose an asset that he couldn’t make up.

Which, of course, doesn’t mean that Nick couldn’t just turn around and stab Harry after killing Murphy, which he almost did.  But it would mean that if the Genoskwa was under such orders, that Murphy might have had a chance if she chose to act like a knight.



Last, Mira - also just saw your post.  A few things:
1.  Butters is unconscious until Uriel shakes him awake.  Presumably, Nicodemus is going about killing Murphy first.  Maybe the reason Harry's still alive here is in order to tell Dresden to shoot Butters, so that when he refuses Nick can kill him without ambiguity once and for all.

Oh, drat, did I just answer my question to Mr. Death on the Genoskwa?  Maybe.  But if true, that would imply that this IS still somewhat of a ploy.  Anyways...

2.  Gen didn't release Harry until after the deal was made with Michael.
3.  Again, Butters *is* a threat to the heist.  Nick doesn't know that Marcone doesn't know about the heist, so it's presumed that if Butters squeals then the deal is off. 

I agree with you (mostly) on the inconsistencies with Gen's refusal to really do much other than hold Harry when Nick is beating the snot out of Karrin.  But it's clear that when the sword is broken, that's not the end of it.  Because the sword alone isn't Nick's only goal - he will take out Dresden and Murphy, if he can.

Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #363 on: September 05, 2017, 07:50:01 PM »
Dangit, Arjan, that's what quote marks and commas are for, I had to read your first sentence like six times before I understood it :P
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Offline Arjan

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #364 on: September 05, 2017, 07:56:59 PM »
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Could either of you respond to this specific point?  If Nicodemus was in his rights to kill Harry at this point, there was no further proof needed to Mab to demonstrate his betrayal, and the Genoskwa was really honestly going to kill him, then what’s with Gen’s relative pacifism while watching Nicodemus gloat?
The Genoskwa waited for a sign from Nicodemus.

And Nicodemus wanted to get the most out of it. His prizes got bigger and bigger until the last one that was not what it seemed.



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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #365 on: September 05, 2017, 08:02:03 PM »
Dom: When that exchange happens, it's after Nicodemus has agreed to let Harry and Murphy go and they're behind the picket fence, out of Nicodemus's immediate reach. Admitting that the deal is off -- while Harry is still alive -- complicates matters because Nicodemus then has to get someone to tackle the Gate of Ice instead of Harry, and Harry has free reign to disrupt his plans.

By contrast, maintaining that the deal is still on serves three purposes for Nicodemus:

1. It saves him the trouble of finding someone else to do Harry's part of the job;
2. It means he doesn't have to worry about Harry scuttling the plan before it's even off the ground;
3. It gives Nicodemus a chance to kill him later on, which we all know he'd been planning to do anyway.

Nicodemus isn't so much saying that Harry was never in danger as he's calling it a draw and backing off to come at him again later. What he's effectively saying is that if Harry tries to call off the deal now on the grounds of Nicodemus trying to kill him, Nicodemus can point out that Harry broke faith first and get him in trouble with Mab. They're at a stalemate at that point, and Nicodemus is content with that for the moment.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #366 on: September 05, 2017, 08:20:50 PM »
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And there’s one last thing.  This, I want to really request that you answer thoroughly.  Your argument had convinced me mostly due to your argument about how Mab wouldn’t admit that her knight was behaving incompetently in this situation.  If that was the case, then why does Harry still believe that Mab would reckon that Harry’s actions could be explained as incompetence?  If Mab just couldn’t admit that her chosen Knight had trouble with one-hit killing a puny mortal, then why is this any sort of defense at all?  Harry knows Mab and what she would consider a breach of contract.  He knows her probably better than any mortal alive.
Just saw this bit.

It depends on who's making the argument. Harry can fudge things; he can argue points of view and what he intended, and Mab might be inclined to see things his way, so long as he can argue it without embarrassing her. She might scold him for incompetence, but if he's still alive, he's still a useful asset for her going forward, which she might well invest her energy to defend.

If Harry is dead, I don't think Mab would think to use, "My Knight was incompetent" as an argument. If she knew Harry's actions were a ruse, her Fae nature would not let her say something she knew to be untrue. She would have to honestly believe that Harry was genuinely trying to kill Butters but failed. That's a story that nobody on the scene believed in the first place, so it's unlikely it'd fool Mab if she had been watching.

She'd also have to see a need to defend Harry posthumously. I don't think she would -- it depends on if her desire to get revenge on Nic outweighs her need to defend the world from Outsiders. I could see her being pragmatic enough to write off Dresden as a loss, bite her tongue and just ally with Nicodemus to get what she needs out of Hades.

If Harry tells the story, Mab can just nod along and say something nonspecific to "accept" his version of events. But it's not an argument I can see her putting forth herself.
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Offline Mira

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #367 on: September 05, 2017, 09:40:40 PM »
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Last, Mira - also just saw your post.  A few things:
1.  Butters is unconscious until Uriel shakes him awake.  Presumably, Nicodemus is going about killing Murphy first.  Maybe the reason Harry's still alive here is in order to tell Dresden to shoot Butters, so that when he refuses Nick can kill him without ambiguity once and for all.

But he didn't kill her did he?   He beat the crap out of her and did his best to humiliate her in the process... He never intended to kill her, if he did, she'd be dead...  The point remains if Butters was a danger to the operation before the event, he remains so afterwards.. But nothing happened to him.. Again, Nic needs Harry at that point for the mission, he doesn't want to wait around to Mab finds another suitable Knight..   He will kill him later which he tries to do when all is said and done..   
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Oh, drat, did I just answer my question to Mr. Death on the Genoskwa?  Maybe.  But if true, that would imply that this IS still somewhat of a ploy.  Anyways...

Yes, it was a ploy, and it succeeded, things would have been very bad except Michael aided by the Grace of Uriel came out of retirement...   Face it, that day evil won for a time, it happens... Making a lot of excuses for the good guys doesn't change the facts..

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2.  Gen didn't release Harry until after the deal was made with Michael.
3.  Again, Butters *is* a threat to the heist.  Nick doesn't know that Marcone doesn't know about the heist, so it's presumed that if Butters squeals then the deal is off. 

However neither did Geno kill Harry, even though Nic "orders" him to do so..  Nor does Nic reprimand him for not doing it... As I said, if Butters was a threat before, he continued to be a threat, yet he isn't killed, no contract is out for him.. He manages to return at the end to become a Holy Knight...  You think if Nic knew any of that he'd allow the little doctor to live?  I kind of doubt it, it says at the time Nic never saw him as a threat of any kind.
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Nicodemus isn't so much saying that Harry was never in danger as he's calling it a draw and backing off to come at him again later. What he's effectively saying is that if Harry tries to call off the deal now on the grounds of Nicodemus trying to kill him, Nicodemus can point out that Harry broke faith first and get him in trouble with Mab. They're at a stalemate at that point, and Nicodemus is content with that for the moment.

All legalese claptrap....  Because Nic never wanted the deal called off, but he wanted the Sword broken.. As he said the whole thing with Geno was to put pressure on Murphy...  Nic wanted his cake and eat it too, and he more or less got that, he managed to set it up so a Sword got broken... Yet at the same time insured himself against anything that would jeopardize the deal..  As he said so sweetly that butter wouldn't melt in his mouth, why he never really intended to kill Harry, etc...
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I agree with you (mostly) on the inconsistencies with Gen's refusal to really do much other than hold Harry when Nick is beating the snot out of Karrin.  But it's clear that when the sword is broken, that's not the end of it.  Because the sword alone isn't Nick's only goal - he will take out Dresden and Murphy, if he can.

Not if, because if he really wanted to, no question it would have been done..  But a dead Murphy is more danger to him than a wounded and humiliated one.. Why?  Because Nic still needed Harry, if he killed Murphy he'd have to kill Harry.. What do you think Harry would do to Nic if he killed Murphy?  If Geno was supposed to take out Harry it would have happened in the first five seconds, or maybe as soon as the Sword was broken, didn't happen...   Of course at some future time Nic will try to take out both Harry and Murphy, however that has nothing to do with what happened in front of Michael's house.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #368 on: September 05, 2017, 10:30:49 PM »
Mira:
Quote
“Face it, Miss Murphy,” Nicodemus said, keeping pace with her. His shadow swarmed all over the ground around her, surrounding her. “Your heart”—the tip of his sword dipped toward it by way of illustration— “simply wasn’t in the right place.”
 
He paused there, long enough to give her time to see the sword thrust coming.
 
She faced him, her eyes fierce and frightened, her face pale with pain.
 
And the front door of the Carpenters’ house opened.
The text of the book clearly has Nicodemus literally seconds away from killing her, with a cheeky one-liner to boot.

He clearly, obviously intends to kill her right then and there. Your assertion that he never intended to kill Murphy is directly contradicted by the text.

And it's not "legalese claptrap." It's what he's saying as explicitly as you can expect.

He is directly saying that his "ploy" is the same exact thing as Harry's "participation in the chase."

He is explicitly, directly calling his ploy the same thing that he knows Harry is outright lying about.
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Offline iago

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Re: Murphy in Peace Talks (WoJ spoilers)
« Reply #369 on: September 05, 2017, 11:54:05 PM »
This thread is triggering reports to moderators because people can't be civil with each other about their disagreements. I have no time to read the thread and judge the fitness of such complaints, so I'm just killing the thread now.

Grow up or leave, please.
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