WAG on murphyonic effect

[knnn]

So one of the things that's pretty universal is magic's effect on technology.   As Harry puts it, any tech after WWII gets affected, esp. electronics.

We also know from WoJ that magic didn't always affect technology, that Harry doesn't quite understand how things work, etc.

So here's the WAG:

What if the actual cause of the effect is the radiation put off by the first atomic bombs?   After all, Low background steel is a real thing (used for geiger counters).

[Quantus]

I dont think it's that hard of a line, enough to indicate the shift there, or a shift all that quick for that matter.

Consider this one explaining the relative difference between a Car and a Gun, which seem to push further back for reliable designs (relative to Harry's prejudices.

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The 'Harry screws up guns' thing hasn't been seen for several novels now, and I sincerely hope it's something JB has decided to let go to dust.  First away, if Harry's disruption thing is so bad that it can mess up simple chemistry and even simpler mechanical operations, then howinblazes does his car ever work?  Orders of magnitude more complex, mechanically, chemically, and electrically speaking...

On the other hand, using a GUN in earnest tends to be a tad more emotionally (and therefore magically) engaging than your average drive in a car.  Proximity has a lot to do with it, too.  Harry's actually TOUCHING the gun, generally in his right hand (the hand that projects magical energy) to boot.  In fact, the gun is small enough that it's actually going to be encompassed by his bioelectric field (a very mild, but totally individual field of electromagnetic energy that the human body produces).

The car is a much larger (relative) object that is (relatively) farther away, even when Harry is driving under stress--and even so, the Beetle (and other cars) have broken down on-stage more often than guns have actually jammed on-stage.

And there are other factors involved of which Harry is not entirely aware.  Alas, that the viewpoint character is non-omniscient.

The rules aren't changing.  The proper circumstances just haven't all aligned the way they have in the other instances of guns glitching.

Jim

There's also the one that says it happens every 300 years or so; if the Atomic bomb plays a significant role then we'd want to look at similarly global events on that cycle. 

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Dragon-Con @2:50
As technology advances, will wizards become marginalized?
It sort of depends on where magic goes.  Magic wasn’t always screwing up post WW2 tech.  Before WW2 magic had other effects.  It sorta changes slowly over time, and about every 3 centuries it rolls over into something else. At one time, instead of magic making machines flip out it made cream go bad.  Before that magic made weird molls on your skin and fire would burn slightly different colors when you were around it.  I do mention this in Ghost story (in passing).  It’s not really aware or something like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who use it. 

For that matter, a gas (or wood) powered water heater is technology that easily predates WWII, and likely predates electrical utilities.   

[dspringer1]

I also believe that the switch to impacting technology happened  number of decades before the atomic bomb.  Before that it was curdling milk or weird moles or something like that. 

[jonas]

Every 3 hundred years or so the stock of wizards alive is completely changed. So every generation the effects change(as the beliefs of each gen change in RL)

[Mira]

Oh this is a scientific discussion!  I thought it was another debate about Murphy...

[jonas]

Oh this is a scientific discussion!  I thought it was another debate about Murphy...

Well heck, I hope to prove she got her name as a joke on the Murphyonic field's DF usage. It would require two proofs though,(one of which is the topic of discussion now) and right now I have nether. Other than that, it's mostly scientific

[wardenferry419]

Magical radiation that increases with exposure?

[Griffyn612]

I've always thought the penalty for being a wizard of a little convenient for every other creature.  In each age, it seems to be a convenient way to identify wizards and practitioners.

My guess is that it's engineered by deities associated with the origin of magic.  Particularly Hecate.  Just how surprised would we be if it turns out the Sidhe are limiting mortal practitioners any way they can?

As for scientific methodology, I'll leave that to smarter minds.

[Quantus]

I've always thought the penalty for being a wizard of a little convenient for every other creature.  In each age, it seems to be a convenient way to identify wizards and practitioners.

My guess is that it's engineered by deities associated with the origin of magic.  Particularly Hecate.  Just how surprised would we be if it turns out the Sidhe are limiting mortal practitioners any way they can?

As for scientific methodology, I'll leave that to smarter minds.

Very.  That would indicate a level of Absolute control over Magic Itself that would be terrifying.  Especially if it's been used to intentionally out Wizards (to their DOOOOOM), and to Limit their Choices and Free Will, which is the fundamental hallmark of the Good Guys.  If the Gods themselves want Mortals to Fall, then they are all just plain screwed, full stop. 

[Mira]

 So is Bob a non magical being?  Now that he is with Butters he seems to have access to the internet.

But back to Harry is it preference or magical effects on technology?  I am talking about candles verses electric lights, electric lights have been around since the 1890s/1900..  Supposedly wizard magic has an effect on them so Harry tends to rely on candles at his place..  At the same time he can drive a car, even the Blue Beetle is more modern technology than the light bulb..  Or talking ice cold showers in the middle of winter in Chicago, one I've never understood, or someone like Thomas standing for that.  Again a pilot light for a gas powered water heater isn't highly technical or any more technical that the gun Harry uses when he decides to use one.  Or the use of an ice box verses a fridge, again electric powered fridges have been around for most of the last century, so his wizard powers should have little or no effect..  Murphy turn off her computer when Harry was around, okay, but her lights and heat still work, she is able to shoot her more modern guns around him etc..  Harry worries about medical devices around him so he is reluctant to visit hospitals, yet he has stayed in one has been treated in one will little effects or Wardens have guarded the likes of Ramirez around the clock in one..  So at the very least the effects can be dampened, but there must be a proximity factor as well..  So lights etc in the place where Harry lives is a problem but everywhere else he goes not so much.. Oh telephones are also mentioned as a problem, again a technology that has been around basically unchanged for a century..  Cell phones I can see being a problem, yet now Molly can use one.. Yes, she is Winter Lady now, but she still is a wizard, so unless her new status gives her super dampening powers, there is an inconsistency here.   Because of all of the above I've always felt that this was one of the weakest aspects of the over all story, though cool on the face of it.

[DonBugen]

I've always had my own WAG theory in regards to the source of this current side-effect of magic; the murphionic field that Dresden generates.  It has everything to do with perception and belief. Technology doesn't foul up just because it's tech; it fouls up because technology is another permutation of magic, a manipulation of the elements of electricity and fire and earth, made specifically in order to achieve a particular end willed by man. When a practitioner asserts their will in doing magic, they disrupt the already-running enchantment of technology.

Why is older tech safe, and new tech suspect? It has to do with the belief of the populace. Tech made before WWII is probably fine because almost everyone has lived all their life with it and doesn't think it's anything special.  Tech made in the past 30 years gets more complicated as many people don't understand it, and tech within the past 10 years must still seem magical to many. We don't understand exactly HOW our smart bluetooth drone-connected phone works, but it does and we love it.

Faerie magic doesn't create the field because the fae don't have free will; whatever they do, they've found a way to make it work within the current running paradigm of reality. But the sloppy, forceful, willful magic of a wizard will push aside this collective tech-magic held together by the belief of mankind in order to make their will be done.

At least, that's my WAG.

[uncanny]

 So is Bob a non magical being?  Now that he is with Butters he seems to have access to the internet.

Bob isn't mortal, so his magic isn't conflicted.  We see also how the Sidhe have no issue with technology as well, since they're not mortal and not conflicted about their magic use.

Why is older tech safe, and new tech suspect? It has to do with the belief of the populace. Tech made before WWII is probably fine because almost everyone has lived all their life with it and doesn't think it's anything special.  Tech made in the past 30 years gets more complicated as many people don't understand it, and tech within the past 10 years must still seem magical to many. We don't understand exactly HOW our smart bluetooth drone-connected phone works, but it does and we love it.

The only thing that comes to my mind, like what's actually changed, is that we are in the age of the transistor since roughly post-WW2.  Cars for instance, prior to WW2 "ish" we were more in the mechanical age - cars were based on purely mechanical actions.  Newer cars have technology enhancements such as electrically calibrated injection, electrically monitored fluids, etc.

[jonas]

Weeelll, since this was never commented on directly and I don't really feel like making another mock up of it all,

Wizards effect technology because they are conflicted. that confliction this is what causes machines to break down. Said effect is actually wizards effecting probability, the randomness of luck.
 It's contained to machines as even top wizards don't usually put off enough magical aura to do what say, meeting with mother winter would do, but the transfer can happen. Also because they are 'spirit callers' not necessarily of previously living beings but the spirits of the elements themselves, like in GS the ghosts can effect the van but not people. they aren't supposed to, and without manifesting(whih is bad juju) they can't. Wizards can effect people and obects inside others aura's because wizards are mortal, they possess the free will to do so.(technically, ghost can screw with the nautral order too, but notice if either a wizard or ghost do so they tend to go kooky for cosmic reasons)
Now notice when said conflict or belief of conflict fails to come into play, is when they aren't conflicted! guns pointed at Dresden misfire all the time. Dresden himself enjoys blowing out technology, that's prime reason why anything around him would go bonkers, deep down he wants it somewhere. Notice now that NEVER not once has Harry's gun ever misfired? He doesn't want it to! it's very clear cut to me but I might not have explained well enough. however I take great offence to the statement no single theory can explain it, mine can... if only I could explain it lol. Oh, and yea... that's totally an underestimation of jims ability to say they're that way to make the story work. of course they're there to make the story work. But not as silly plot devices that go one way or another depending on what makes the current story. the over arcing story.
I use this connection between magic and random luck to make my own connection between the 3rd fate, the chooser, Nemesis who meets out punishment and literal fortuna, luck.  it's all the same thing. Before she was ousted she controlled magic to decide the fate of everything as much as MW destroys and MS is the source of creation.
*Notice milk stopped spoiling and skin conditions desisted as part of the magical effect, right around when people started to learn more about the world and contributing those things to reality based effects instead of bad luck or 'little demons', Ahhh think about it, milk was left out to ward away bad luck! It twas the focus to to be used against it, a talisman if you were. An what happened because of it? Random 'badluck' from wizarding aura's began to accumulate in milk causing it to spoil!

Now if anyone wishes to discuss this or demand I expound more upon it, shoot now or forever keep your finger off the trigger
And for posterity Murphy's name

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Might be a joke on the fact her 'starborn' or simply her character blueprint is based upon 'the chooser'. The same kernel that Gard's based on as the chooser of the slain and Nemesis/Lachesis as The chooser of fate. It's similar to how Harry is in the same vein as Odin, GK, Merlin, Nico, ect. So Murphy is named after the murphyonic effect of wizards effecting statistical fate

*any other examples of how wizards effected things in the past so I can research them too? because so far 'luck' plays a significant belief in their causality.

[Mira]

Why is older tech safe, and new tech suspect? It has to do with the belief of the populace. Tech made before WWII is probably fine because almost everyone has lived all their life with it and doesn't think it's anything special.  Tech made in the past 30 years gets more complicated as many people don't understand it, and tech within the past 10 years must still seem magical to many. We don't understand exactly HOW our smart bluetooth drone-connected phone works, but it does and we love it.

That has been true for over a hundred years, the average person cannot explain how or why their telephone, television, radio or cars works..  No, most don't believe they are run by magic, but as far as their understanding, they just as well be.
So I don't think technology being complicated has much to do with it.  Harry could ride with Billy in his new SUV, but when he started to drive it all kinds of crap hits the fan..  So I really doubt it is about perception. 

Faerie magic doesn't create the field because the fae don't have free will; whatever they do, they've found a way to make it work within the current running paradigm of reality. But the sloppy, forceful, willful magic of a wizard will push aside this collective tech-magic held together by the belief of mankind in order to make their will be done.

I doubt that free will has anything to do with it, because when technology is disrupted by a wizard, it just happens, it isn't because they are willingly putting the technical gadget on hold or blowing it up so they can work their magic.  Just the opposite, there are lines in the series where Harry has talked about avoiding the E.R. and hospitals in general because him being a wizard might blow up the machines vital to keep people alive.   1] If Harry had a whole lot of control over it, he would dampen it..  2]  It seems to just happen... Again, another inconsistency,  cell phones, there are plenty in use around Harry and other wizards, they should all blow up, they don't....  Or are wizards the blame for dropped calls?

The only thing that comes to my mind, like what's actually changed, is that we are in the age of the transistor since roughly post-WW2.  Cars for instance, prior to WW2 "ish" we were more in the mechanical age - cars were based on purely mechanical actions.  Newer cars have technology enhancements such as electrically calibrated injection, electrically monitored fluids, etc.

Still all new technology.  Wizards existed thousands of years before the advent of any twentieth century technology,  so there shouldn't be any difference pre WWII or post..  Cars preWWII still need batteries, which supply an electric spark for cars to work...  Now I could buy the argument that magic interferes with the flow of electrons, thus screws up most modern gadgets, but again even the pre WWII gadgets depend on electron flow..  My WAG is when Jim first wrote about this it seemed like a cool idea, but logic makes it a very hard concept to sustain.

[jonas]

My WAG is when Jim first wrote about this it seemed like a cool idea, but logic makes it a very hard concept to sustain.

Hate when people think that, it's giving up when there's so much more to be had. Can you break down a list of what precisely you'd need for me to convince you my idea works?