A clue during Uriel's transubstation - Skin Games Spoilers!

[Yuillegan]

Hi All,

So I was re-reading Skin Games recently and noticed a line I have noticed before but forgotten to mention. After the initial fight between Murphy and Nicodemus where Murphy is injured and Michael steps in to save her, Uriel appears. And essentially acts like himself and an angel. He pleads with Michael Carpenter to not leave the boundary of the house, but Michael insists. So he assists Michael in crossing the boundary by bestowing his angelic essence, his grace, into Michael.

When explaining what happened to Michael after Harry accidentally breaks Uriel's nose and everyone begins to notice that an Archangel can bleed and realizing that is not normal - he says the line "It was not with our power to heal what was done to you". The use of "our" in that sentence has piqued my interest.

Is Uriel one part of a greater whole? The simplest explanation was he was using the royal "our" OR he was revering to the entire heavenly host (like saying the US can help you, we can help you).

HOWEVER, it is possible he means it in the way the Mothers do. Especially if everything is tied together, see the GUCMT thread in the DF Reference Collection for more on that. http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,41981.0.html

Could all Archangels be linked, parts of a greater whole...TWG? Or perhaps all angels are linked to the TWG, similar to the Gabriel movie where they are all linked to "the Source". It poses some interesting questions if the angels, or even just the Archangels are linked. IF all the Archangels form the being that is known as TWG, where does Lucifer fit in?

Let me know your thoughts!
 

[jonas]

I mean, now he was transubstantiated and all I doubt it will come to pass that it's admitted even if true, but I always figure Uriel is where the literal TWC ended up. Look at it this way, in his old role as creator TWG had no role in deciding the fate of his own creations. So he abdicates, comes down and get's new choices ending up in an administration position that DOES decide the fate, that of free will ruling over fate(plus grooming the timelines for best situations). I thing him and the three swords watchers combine as the riders of their apocalypse. the new risen order of freedom of will.

[ebliss1]

I figured it was part of the usual "I have no power - I only channel what God gives me" line

[Mira]

I figured it was part of the usual "I have no power - I only channel what God gives me" line

That totally fits, anything else could trigger a one way ticket down..

[Quantus]

Another, slightly smaller possibility was that he was referring to the angels present (as opposed to the angelic race overall), referring to himself and the bodyguards that were watching. 

That being said I tend to lean towards the concept of all angels being integrally and constantly connected to TWG, philospophically.  Ive even entertained the theory that TWG is just an amalgamation of all Soul in the uni/multiverse rather than a discrete entity of it's own (but the Day One short makes me doubt this). 

Ive also toyed with the possibility that all mythological Creators throughout human history are facets/avatars of the same Entity. In that theory the Mothers are themselves facets of this Creator; the polar Fire and Ice primordial forces that created the world in the Norse myth, also two parts of the hindu Trimurti credited with Creation as far as I understand, "typically Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer/regenerator."(-wikipedia)

[Snark Knight]

Ive also toyed with the possibility that all mythological Creators throughout human history are facets/avatars of the same Entity. In that theory the Mothers are themselves facets of this Creator; the polar Fire and Ice primordial forces that created the world in the Norse myth

Many of the creators might be different facets of the same one, but we know the Mothers arose later from Hecate's mantle being divided and their Courts grew in power through sacrifices on the Table. And even if the original Hecate continued as Mother Winter, she wasn't a creator in her origins.

[jonas]

"typically Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer/regenerator."

Huh, yea that trio works the same thematics pretty well. Crossing them with the fates the middle one has a lot more descriptive role here. Could well be another point toward summer and winter being that whole 3 piece broken down again by 3.(cause Pi stays Pi, the magic of three's) They Preserve reality, the balance, ect. Mmm.

[Quantus]

Many of the creators might be different facets of the same one, but we know the Mothers arose later from Hecate's mantle being divided and their Courts grew in power through sacrifices on the Table. And even if the original Hecate continued as Mother Winter, she wasn't a creator in her origins.

In general this theory only works if you really embrace the extreme implications of both a)Most if not all big players having lots of Names/Hats, and b)Mantles being a constantly evolving melting pot of Purpose/Power.

So it's less that Hecate is or was the Creator and more that a facet the Creator and the Fates, Baba Yaga, et al. now happen to reside in the same vessel.  In this instance, I see it as such:  The Creator Facet is the Primoridal Energies of Fire and Ice (in Norse creation the interaction these two forces gave birth to all subsequent creation, largely unGuided), and through unrevealed Shenanigans, this Power was used in the creation of the current system of Gate Guardians (a cosmic task that would presumably warrant a cosmic Power source), but that it only recently got associated with the being(s) formerly known as Hecate.


Once historically interesting thing is that Hecate started as a small fry, was inflated to a much more supreme place in the pantheon by later authors, but then in post christian writings "she was regarded with (some) rulership over earth, sea and sky, as well as a more universal role as Saviour (Soteira), Mother of Angels and the Cosmic World Soul.".  If viewed through the DF lens, that sounds like a post-Crucifixion ascension of prominence within the christian POV/framework, one that sure cold be arguably on par with TWG.   

[DonBugen]

Uriel says this as he stands on the Carpenters' property, surrounded by other sentinel angels. The plain sense interpretation of "our" in this sense is that it is not in the power of the angels to heal him; that the "our" is referring to his race, present yet unseen by mortals. Any other interpretation, I think, is really reaching unless there is supporting evidence to demonstrate why this plain interpretation does not fit the context.

[Rasins]

I read that as anyone on the side of defending the free will of mortals.  Anyone.  Angels, Archangels, or anyone else who fights for free will and the restriction of those who would limit it.

[Quantus]

I read that as anyone on the side of defending the free will of mortals.  Anyone.  Angels, Archangels, or anyone else who fights for free will and the restriction of those who would limit it.

Which is essentially the functional description of The Good Guys in the DV:

2008 ComicCon Playing God panel Q&A @~7:00
How do you come up with the bounds between Characters free will and the Divine Hand?
For the Dresden Files, the whole point of The Almighty positive good forces that are out there is that free will is important and they respect that and you've gotta have it and use it.  That's the entire point.  They are a force of freedom.  And it's the bad guys who are going around doing whatever they can to abrogate free will.  So for me, where you draw the line is what defines where good stops and evil starts is by how much you're taking away free will and how much you're enabling it.

[Rasins]

Which is essentially the functional description of The Good Guys in the DV:

See?  See?  LOL

[lynde4]

Unless Uriel is simply an Archangel, who along with other AA's is doing what they do, using their graces on behalf of humanity, for the greater good. . .

[Rasins]

Unless Uriel is simply an Archangel, who along with other AA's is doing what they do, using their graces on behalf of humanity, for the greater good. . .

But WHY?

[Emeraldblade]

What if all "Uriel" did was transfer the mantel of his divinity to Michael.  Just like Harry holds the winter knight mantel, and Molly the winter lady, Uriel just gives the mantel of an arch angel to Michael.  I imagine the mantel acts in a different way from the Winter mantels however in that so long as the person wielding that mantel acts in accordance to "HIS" will that the mantel is returned to "HIM" even upon death. 

So once Uriel gave the mantel away he was able to act of his own free will because he was mortal again, but the only act of free will Uriel really has is to bestow the mantel to someone else.  I imagine that this hasn't happened often before but Michael was deemed worthy of this mantel and might actually be auditioning for a new part once he passes from the mortal coil.

Boiled down, this is what I think

Harry's Mantel=small fraction of winter's power (1-3%)
Uriel's Mantel=Large portion of Christianity's god power (10-20%)

Neither Harry nor Michael's bodies are truly healed by this, but their spirit grows to transcend the limits of mortality. My guess is the earring that Mab gives Harry is a temporary bit of her essence, that gives him more of her, too ignore the pain he is enduring.  Though I wonder since it broke on him if he isn't going to keep some of it without knowing it.