Poll

If Langtry had decided to execute Molly directly, would Michael prevail in Battle?

Sword wouldn't work
6 (37.5%)
Sword Neutralizes Langtry, Michael wins
10 (62.5%)
Langtry's magic takes down Michael
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: August 28, 2017, 11:38:43 PM

Author Topic: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry  (Read 6504 times)

Offline jonas

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Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« on: July 29, 2017, 11:38:43 PM »
So PG question turns into Fight Night. Lets cut down the situation, Langtry proceeds to order Molly's execution anyway. Harry's promises to run with her and Morgan follows. Eb and GK wisely decide to stand aside and order all underlings to do the same, outweighing the Merlin's orders 2-1 Leaving Langtry ready to lash out directly to achieve his will. What happens next? You decide and tell us about why.

*removed other as it was being misapplied with the first reasoning, pls revote for that if that's your wish.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 02:24:53 PM by jonas »
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2017, 12:11:11 AM »
This one isn't all that much of a question... the Sword gives the Knight an even chance of prevailing, but that's if the WG is sponsoring him. If not, it's just a sword, and whether or not it's invulnerable, Michael has no chance.  As Michael was there on the WG's call to save council members and it was Molly's choices that landed her there, I doubt that Michael would get some sort of preferential treatment.

Offline jonas

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2017, 01:41:56 AM »
This one isn't all that much of a question... the Sword gives the Knight an even chance of prevailing, but that's if the WG is sponsoring him. If not, it's just a sword, and whether or not it's invulnerable, Michael has no chance.  As Michael was there on the WG's call to save council members and it was Molly's choices that landed her there, I doubt that Michael would get some sort of preferential treatment.
That's basically just a way of saying you scoff at all the incremental questions along the way.
Are the WC fit judges to order the destruction of another's life? Does Molly deserve to die? Is the sword really off mission when not directly against Denarians?(Michael has killed goons with it, evil dragons running covenants in trade for human sacrifice, it was brought into play for the correct reasons vs the LoONs and turned the tide of battle more than once, ect. NOT a non issue.) Are Wizards supernatural creatures? Ect, ect. Not so cut and dry when you start stacking evidence and variables on the issues.

*(and that probably counts under sword would fail, not other fyi)
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Offline isoycrazy

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2017, 03:59:52 AM »
I say the Sword glows bright as a father protects his repentant child from those who would kill her.  He is not Abraham on the mountain being asked to kill his own child.  Langtry seeing that this is against God's Will, not wanting to burn that bridge, backs down because he doesn't know if he could win in such a fight.

Offline Lidy

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2017, 05:28:16 AM »
I agree with DonBugen and isocrazy, but here’s my extended take on it:

Michael fights with his Faith and Amoracchius. He isn’t a lunatic like Sanya, so he wouldn’t employ a bazooka and an AK47 to deal with his enemies; Michael fights to give people a chance to repent and redeem themselves, not to kill them. So…

If Michael were using Amoracchius: Langtry wins. Even if Langtry suddenly “remembered” the First Law of Magic and decided not to use magic to kill Michael off, it would take only a wrong lifting of Amoracchius to unmake it, stripping Michael of his advantage. Michael would be so shocked, Langtry would be able to dance polka on his head and set him on fire without Michael even realizing it. Result: Michael dead, Langtry winner, Langtry enforcing the Laws of his people.

If Michael were using any other sword/weapon: Langtry becomes a memory. In either scenario, I believe Langtry wouldn’t use magic (even if they dueled like Harry and Ortega (which is impossible, because the KOTC aren’t signatories of the Unseelie Accords, and neither is Michael himself, so the rules don’t apply)), the Merlin wouldn’t use magic (again… First Law of Magic, don’t be an ass and cause people to die with your magic, it’ll taint you and make you a warlock and itstheendoftheworldyoudiegotothehills #hysteriaensues). Considering Langtry’s age, he’d probably be well-versed in using swords (I doubt he knows to operate a bazooka, and maybe even if he did, it’d react badly to his magic), which would be useless: he’s old and frail whereas Michael trains every day with his ferocious mean bitch of a wife and was probably trained/tipped by Shiro (who was a great swordsman) and has been on the field for two decades (or more). With Michael were wielding some else… like, say, Ice, Needle a light saber or any other fake, non-Holy Sword… it wouldn’t even be a fair fight. Remember that Michael kicked Father Douglas’s ass for kidnapping his daughter and scaring her. If Langtry tried to kill Molly, Michael would make Langtry regret being born.

Also, Langtry wouldn’t “order Molly's execution anyway” or “lash out directly to achieve his will.” He’s a politician above everything, and he wants to avoid dividing the WC, which would happen if he ignored a voting. Besides, even if Rashid and Eb decided to stay out of it, LaFortier and Ancient Mai wouldn’t, therefore giving the Merlin an advantage—because, staying out of it doesn’t mean they’d have voted for Molly to live—, and if Harry decided to kidnap her and hide her, then LTW and Martha Liberty, alongside virtually everyone else, would be calling for Harry’s head as well. So, Michael with a sword will defeat Langtry, but Michael with a Sword won’t; not that it would make a difference, because Michael wouldn’t be involved in a fight with a man who can’t fight (Langtry’s weapon is his magic, not a physical weapon).

Additionally, not even a KOTC can judge another—Murphy tried with Nicodemus and look at what happened, and Harry also tried in one of the first books, unmaking Amoracchius in the process. Michael’s duty as KOTC isn’t to pass judgment; after all, the KOTC wouldn’t even cold-bloodedly kill a Host, Michael didn’t try to kill Lea or Thomas in Bianca’s ball, or Harry after Harry touched Lasciel’s coin, so Michael certainly wouldn’t get into a physical fight with an old man; he’d likely try to convince Langtry to put Molly on probation because he was going to convince her to get rid of her magic; this Langtry would accept, but he’d send Morgan to monitor Molly and make sure she was letting go of her magic. At the same time, Langtry wouldn’t act thinking of God’s will, because the responsibility of his position as the Merlin and the Laws of Magic, means destroying warlocks like Molly and defending innocent mortals from people like her.

So I just voted “Other.”

Offline DonBugen

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2017, 12:34:54 PM »
Jonas: I hear you, I do. But my argument is not that Arthur Langtry is not a Denarian and therefore Michael is helpless; rather, that he is a mortal who possesses free will and choice. Think of the angel of death in Ghost Story who stood beside Forthill as he lay dying: what happened to Forthill was a result of the choices of many mortals. Who was he to step in?

Michael works for the same guy. Remember in Skin Game, he cannot follow into the Gate of Fire because Hannah chose to go there. Well, Molly's made her choice, and Dresden made his, and the Council would have made theirs. What could Michael do? Being "supernatural" in this sense means diddly; almost every mortal has SOME magical ability. Arthur being Shaq amongst a basketball court full of toddlers means nothing. He's mortal.

The only mortals that the Knights have the authority to kill are the Denarians, and only -after- they refuse to give up the coin. And -that- is because the Knights have a special mission in regards to the coins: to protect the bearers from the Fallen, and to protect others from the bearers.  There is no similar decree to protect convicted criminals of any mortal governing body from receiving their sentance.

Edit: Did you read "The Warrior" in Side Jobs?  Uriel pretty much tells Dresden that he was along in order to protect Michael from doing the exact thing you describe.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 12:39:28 PM by DonBugen »

Offline jonas

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2017, 01:56:04 PM »
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Also, Langtry wouldn’t “order Molly's execution anyway” or “lash out directly to achieve his will.”
Now that's just a refusal to play the game ;(
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Additionally, not even a KOTC can judge another—Murphy tried with Nicodemus and look at what happened,
THIS!^^ lets examine this actually. Because I don't think most people have gone in depth enough about why that happened getting lost in the Murph bashing... But look at Nic's actions and look at Murphy's. Why did Murphy fail? Because Nic had given himself up? No, and i'll get to why. Because she struck with impure intentions? Precisely. She wasn't trying to save anyone deep down, or protect. She hated Nic in that moment and wanted to strike him down not only for the pain he had caused but because of her own personal torment.

The proof in that? Nic never really gave up! He set down his main protections, he made himself look vulnerable, all in an attempt to smash the sword. But he never took his finger of the trigger of the weapon he was using, The Genoska. As per SK and Harry wielding Toot Toot, whenever one person dictate commands to another, specifically seen as a supernatural entity but probably applies to all vassels(which I'd also point out is why Nic's goons can die by the sword), means that the Genoska was his weapon that he was actively using from Murph's and Harry's perspectives to kill Harry. Doesn't this seem like a big glaringly obvious plot hole otherwise?There would have been nothing wrong with continuing against Nic, except the intention of the person wielding the sword.
Quote
Did you read "The Warrior" in Side Jobs?  Uriel pretty much tells Dresden that he was along in order to protect Michael from doing the exact thing you describe.
Also a direct result of how Michael acted/reacted emotionally and how it colored his intent. He admitted to Harry iirc that he just plain wanted to kill that guy at the time.
I'll take apart a few other points I see later. That should be more than enough to chew on for now ;)

Oh,
Quote
"I am truly sorry for you brother-but this time, you will answer for what you have done."
And that's very precisely Michael condemning Nic in the same way, after giving him a choice, which is why in this and the discussion before it I've relegated that the WC members her have already made said choice. Cause that seems to be your point there,  and Lidy's point above(instead of just accepting a situation so we can get to the heart of the issue presented) but if you examine what's being said it's a nonissue here. Choices were made, that's why it's a 'what if'.
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he is a mortal who possesses free will and choice.
The Warlock running Charities covenant was free willed and choose to sacrifice lives to a dragon, whom was Michael to step in and stop the process? ??? He even killed a dragon who was probably just doing dragon things it considered normal when humans offer virgins and the like. Who knows what happened to the Warlock until we get in a short story? :)
and on the same vein, who wasn't Murphy to step in and stop Nic from sacrificing Harry to the Genoskwa? Mmm. ???
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 03:55:03 PM by jonas »
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Offline jonas

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2017, 04:05:51 PM »
Well, I guess maybe your right. And I'll change my vote, slightly(or at least think of it differently, cause that's still not what's in the battle set up fyi...) In this instance if Michael is indeed too close to it to act rationally from love or somehow righteous love of life and indignation at it's flagrant taking doesn't translate over... Harry would react strongly to the sword here. In this his belief is pure and his intention was very true. He was gonna do anything to stop them in those moments because he truly believes himself that it was possible for her to choose. So overall I've given evidence the Sword would react in such a situation dependent upon the intentions of the bearer. Which while I disagree Michael wouldn't have the right. Harry would certainly have the purity of intent...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:08:34 PM by jonas »
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2017, 04:47:40 PM »
Okay, I do hear your points. I especially do agree with you about Nic not giving up in skin game, so it is important to note that Nic admitted that he didn't know whether or not Murphy would undo the sword by acting in that moment if she had not made it a moment of personal vengeance.

I don't think that Gregor and the dragon is good evidence that Michael can attack Mortals if the cause seems right. For one, when charity talks about her history, she only speaks about Gregor being the villain. It's Gregor, Gregor, Gregor, and then when Michael comes in, he slays the Dragon. Think: if a stranger immediately jumps into your summoning ritual and starts battling your summon dragon to the death, a creature that can eat you without a second thought, are you suddenly going to go and defend the dragon? Or are you going to slink away? I'm not saying that's what happened, but I think that we can't use this as evidence to judge, especially when the rest of the Dresden Files do support that Michael can't attack Mortals with the white God's support.

The one thing, that I do think would never happen, is Harry picking up the sword of Love at this point. Remember, PG Harry is still holding a coin, and it's pretty much terrified that God would look at him at all. He repeatedly says that he is not a knight and will never be a knight, and while I think that this is to some extent, denial, we've never seen him hold a sword to use it other than in GP, when he nearly destroyed it.

To answer this epic battle question without considering the circumstances doesn't really make sense when Michael's entire superpower completely depend on the circumstances. But I'll try to answer it as honestly as I can.  If any Supernatural creature, be at eight Goblin or Nicodemus or the entire red Court, we're to be called to a knight to defeat it, they would have a better-than-average odd of defeating them, simply from the swords power. However, if they did not have the white gods support, they would most likely die.

I apologize for the weirdness of this post, I'm trying to dictate this into my cell phone while giving a dog a bath.

Offline groinkick

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2017, 06:16:49 PM »
If Michael is there on official business, he wins hands down.  The Swords appear to neutralize disadvantages forcing an equal fight.  I doubt Langtry would fair well against Michael on equal terms.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2017, 11:00:56 PM »
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I don't think that Gregor and the dragon is good evidence that Michael can attack Mortals if the cause seems right.
Michael jams the Sword through a door in DM, impaling the goon behind it. He doesn't even bother to ask. The situation is pretty clear to him I think. The difference I think is Michael himself didn't see other options. Negotiate through a door with a Sword, no matter how supernaturally powerful, vs a guy with a gun already firing blind? Admittedly it is one of the only times I can think of that it's had the chance to be put in a situation against pure mortals. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. If Arthur's legend is anything like accurate it was his Sword of Swords in battle.
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I apologize for the weirdness of this post, I'm trying to dictate this into my cell phone while giving a dog a bath
Huh ??? well color me impressed.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 02:10:06 AM by jonas »
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Offline DonBugen

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2017, 03:53:51 PM »
Huh…  I vaguely remember reading a passage like that – the first five books are always harder for me to really get back into than the later ones, partially because I mostly do the Audiobooks and Marsters took a little while to pronounce everything right.  I’ve gone through DM to a few passages that I thought might contain the goon-impaling, and I’ve come up short.  Do you have the location in the book, or a quote?

If true – and I don’t doubt you at all that it is; I just want to read it in context – that does change a few things on my theory.  It really makes things far more complex.  The Knights defend freedom, free will, and choice.  When confronting Cassius Snakeboy, despite knowing that he’s horribly murdered many innocent (ish) people, they cannot pass judgment on him and offer violence in order to stop the plague and save countless lives.

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Michael’s expression was pained.  “The Knights are here to protect freedom: to give those under the oppression of dark forces the chance to win free of them.  I cannot sit in judgment of this man’s soul, Harry Dresden: not for you, not for anyone.  All I can do is remain faithful to my calling; give him the chance to see hope for his future, to show him the love and compassion any human being should show another.  The rest is out of my hands.”

In regards to Choice and Free Will, combining this with the actions of the angel in Ghost Story, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the Knights are free to defend those who are being oppressed by dark forces outside of their control, but are not free to defend people from the consequences of their choices.  Put another way – if Nic sends five tongueless goons to attack Michael and he has no other choice, he can fight and defend himself, because the goons chose to do that.  Michael wouldn’t make the little Denarian cult nervous in Skin Game if he had no power over them.

On the other hand, I don’t think Michael would be able to attack the Merlin on behalf of Molly.  Molly surrendered herself to the will of the Council for judgment.  If somehow things fell in such a way that Molly was still executed by the will of the Council, then it was in fact her choice to do so.  She was certainly hoping for leniency, but chose to face the music rather than run.

But……  that wasn’t quite your question.  You asked if Arthur decided to kill Molly anyways, against the will of the rest of the Council.  Which would then not be an execution but a murder.  And in that case, I am certain that Michael would be able to fight Langtry, and win handily.

And in fact, you also pose this as vengeance rather than defense of an innocent.  This makes it trickier – the WG might not do anything for personal vengeance, but he certainly does on occasion deliver judgment and wrath:  see Murphy playing puppet to an angel herald in Changes. 

OK.  So, this is what I think, in all of the multifaceted ways it could be taken:

Michael attacks Langtry either to save Molly from execution or in vengeance after an execution, which was called for by a majority vote from the council:  Michael fails; the sword breaks, and Langtry incapacitates him without killing him.  Quickly and efficiently.  He didn’t become the Merlin by collecting frequent flier miles, after all.

Michael attacks Langtry either to save Molly after Langtry decides to kill Molly despite losing the vote, or in vengeance after Langtry does it without the majority vote:  Tricky.  If everyone is stepping back and allowing Langtry to do it because he’s threatening them all and practically going warlock, then it’s a no-brainer.  Michael overpowers Langtry's magic by force of will and through the sword.  Because Langtry has little physical power and great magical power, if he either employs his magic to try to kill Molly or Michael, then the wardens and Ebenezer would join in to kill the warlock Merlin when it becomes clear that Michael gives them the upper hand.  Everyone goes out for ice cream afterwards.  But if Langtry is going ahead without opposition because the others either think it must be done or because the Merlin gets some sort of final say, then I think this reflects the will of all of the other mortals there and is also in a way the expression of the will of the council.  Michael would fall in that case.

Michael attacks Langtry in vengeance not from Molly’s death, but from the deaths of all of the other children killed, like the Korean kid in the beginning of PG: I think that the WG would be behind this, and Michael could prevail, but it wouldn’t be Michael vs. Langtry:  it would be Michael vs. the entire White Council.  And I think that attacking them in a room surrounded by wardens and several senior council members would be a deathwish.  But then again, if that was the WG’s plan, I don’t believe that he would set up Michael in such a way.  Michael might prevail, but I think that it would be a Small Favors type of victory:  he would probably accomplish his mission, but die in the process.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 03:57:44 PM by DonBugen »

Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2017, 10:18:08 AM »
Imo, all three scenarios that DonBugen listed are a real possibility. I tend to the last one, that Michael could have caused a lot of damage there, but would get killed in the end. Maybe get the Sword destroyed too.

The main reason isn't so much because of the people who might slug it out, but that the Gatekeeper stepped in and helped prevent it. He might not fully understand the limits Michael is actually facing, but he thought that it might end there very badly (and in favor of Nemesis).

Offline Thatguywhocomesaround

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2017, 02:29:23 PM »
*COUGH*

*COUGH*

Somebody trying to steal my claim to fame on this website?  >:( THAT'S IT! I challenge jonas to trial by combat for Butcher Battle# 20

Offline jonas

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Re: Butcher Battle #19: Michael vs Langtry
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2017, 03:18:05 PM »
*COUGH*

*COUGH*

Somebody trying to steal my claim to fame on this website?  >:( THAT'S IT! I challenge jonas to trial by combat for Butcher Battle# 20
It's clear the victor shall only be chosen by merit of his skills with a knightsaber. So.... ;D I have already won o.- :)
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