Summoning Question

[Quantus]

This.  This is the underlying question I'm concerned with.

||Spitt-balling||

#1 - It's described as a sort of OCD compulsion, but it's also established that sending a proxy is sufficient, so it's not absolute.
#2 - Some mental contact is not considered a violation, such as the WN contact with Elaine, the Military Coordination Spell Langtry used in TC, and arguably even the speaking stones with Eb in Changes.


So where does a Summoning become Subconsciously Communicating an Invitation?  The only thing I can think of would be the potential fallout of ignoring said Summons.  A mortal summoned by Name would eventually get a new Name (the worst the fallout the faster it would happen, even) but that's not permanent but it's a lot of Damage. 

Also worth noting: Harry is a special case, per WOJ (When asked about the Dangers of announcing his Name in CD?).  If the distinction has to do with your Subconscious, perhaps he's a Special Case because he can theoretically Consciously speak to his own Subconscious and bypass some of the mechanism? 

[Rasins]

If you'll recall, when Harry summoned Toot-toot in SF, Morgan accused him of violating the law.

Harry loop-holed out of it because Toot wasn't mortal, but he did say that he'd slipped the barest amount of compulsion into the spell.

If used on a mortal, and NOT putting a compulsion into the spell, it could just be a physic invite.  If there is compulsion, that implies that it was an UNWELCOME or Uninvited use of mind magic and that would be a violation.

[Mr. Death]

I imagine there's a difference between compelling someone to show up and just physically bringing them there.

[khadgar4606]

toot toot is kinda special case since he knows there is payment on request he kinda keeps one magical eye open for dresdens call. so he is kinda easier to summon for the ones know the ritual harry uses ( place pizza on target and call toot three times).

the real summoning would be murphy summoning molly via small lesson from dresden with her own power

[Zaphodess]

Harry is going to be summoned to the Mirror Mirror universe by his evil doppelganger.

Maybe the Summoning won't be done by his name but by blood. -Harry is different from Harry, they don't have the same Name any more. It's the nature of mortal Names to change over time. So -Harry can't know it. But they do share the same blood.

Or -Harry just tries out a couple of variants of his name in the hope that one will find another Harry that is still alive.

[jonas]

Maybe the Summoning won't be done by his name but by blood. -Harry is different from Harry, they don't have the same Name any more. It's the nature of mortal Names to change over time. So -Harry can't know it. But they do share the same blood.

Or -Harry just tries out a couple of variants of his name in the hope that one will find another Harry that is still alive.

I imagine the whole reason !Harry can summon Harry is he does know his full name. He just has to slightly modify the idea behind it, maybe the precise inflections, with the intention to summon a slightly off version of yourself. Harry does precisely the same thing to Elaines name in WN btw so it's not entirely unprecedented. Little Wag: I think this is why !Harry is going to get much more than he bargained for, he's imagining a Harry already deceased(Harrys cup broke the lid but it's still full, if you know what I mean). Which is a fallacy of perception towards life and death on !Harry's part I think.
*Harry being good at deducing names may be another OG Merlin link, He had to have some way to get all those things there after all.

@Quantus, #2Don't we have a woj about if what happened in TC violated any any laws with the Merlins coordination effort and the answer was "we'll find out"?
#1I think that might depend on the directness of the link.. thinking of a woj(this one i'm rather certain exists) about if someone tried to control Mab with just that one name, Not having enough leverage. What Harry does to Toot is using his precise unbroken name, same as he latter does calling EK. EK had to know it was a trap, he just couldn't not show up to such a direct link to him. Notice most of the summonings that seem backed by 'choice of answering' are also using incomplete or common names for those things, or just plain asking as Harry seems to in DB of Lea.

What I wonder is if you call on something can more show up? Say, you call Odin, bad idea all around I know, can Kringle also make his power known? Technically different beings, summoning one doesn't necessarily summon the other does it? Now say instead you got ahold of Odin's original name, and summoned him by it, since he is both Odin and Kringle can he manifest power from either of them? Is it always a package deal that arrives? does using the source being differ from using a minor, but complete in and of itself, mask?

[Quantus]

If you'll recall, when Harry summoned Toot-toot in SF, Morgan accused him of violating the law.

Harry loop-holed out of it because Toot wasn't mortal, but he did say that he'd slipped the barest amount of compulsion into the spell.

Hmm, he cited both the non-mortal fact and that Toot retained a choice in taking the bargain.

"Evening, Morgan. You know as well as I do that those laws apply to mortals. Not faeries. Especially for something as trivial as I just did. And I didn't break the Fourth Law. He had the choice whether to take my deal or not."

Morgan's sour, leathery face turned a bit more sour, the lines at the corners of his mouth stretching and becoming deeper. "That's a technicality, Dresden. A pair of them."

@Quantus, #2Don't we have a woj about if what happened in TC violated any any laws with the Merlins coordination effort and the answer was "we'll find out"?

Hmmm, Maaaybe?  Doesnt sound familiar offhand and Im not seeing it in the index, but that's not definitive. 

#1I think that might depend on the directness of the link.. thinking of a woj(this one i'm rather certain exists) about if someone tried to control Mab with just that one name, Not having enough leverage. What Harry does to Toot is using his precise unbroken name, same as he latter does calling EK. EK had to know it was a trap, he just couldn't not show up to such a direct link to him. Notice most of the summonings that seem backed by 'choice of answering' are also using incomplete or common names for those things, or just plain asking as Harry seems to in DB of Lea.

Agreed.  Several times it's less of an actual Summoning and more of just using the True Name to send a magic call.  One qualitative difference is that when he calls Toot there is not closed circle yet, and Toot is responsible for getting there under his own Power.  By contrast with what Im calling a true summoning, the Circle is a Key part and provides the actual Transportation; There's no other way Mab could have reached the DR summit in CD otherwise. 

I think Peabody's book is evidence that summoning such creatures is not itself against the Law, it was too public and too easily recognized.   For that matter Harry summoned demons and Loa for info often enough, there was just no thralling subjegation, always contained bargaining. 

What I wonder is if you call on something can more show up? Say, you call Odin, bad idea all around I know, can Kringle also make his power known? Technically different beings, summoning one doesn't necessarily summon the other does it? Now say instead you got ahold of Odin's original name, and summoned him by it, since he is both Odin and Kringle can he manifest power from either of them? Is it always a package deal that arrives? does using the source being differ from using a minor, but complete in and of itself, mask?

Im guessing that's case-by-case.  Mab/Harry needed Vadderung's insight, but Kringle was the easier to reach; but the flip side is a Fae invite might not even reach into an all Steel office(...hey, is that the whole point?  A little peace and quiet from his Santa side?).  By contrast he used several Names to summon Mother Winter, but she seemed to live a little more of an amalgamated existence than the Mask collection of Vadderung. 

[Rasins]

I think Peabody's book is evidence that summoning such creatures is not itself against the Law, it was too public and too easily recognized.   For that matter Harry summoned demons and Loa for info often enough, there was just no thralling subjegation, always contained bargaining.

I've been wondering about this.  Harry Summoned and "trapped" the Erlking in DB.

But when Harry summoned Chauncy and the LOA, when the conversation was done, the one summoned just left.  Not through the Circle, but back the way they came.  Harry didn't mention anything about releasing them or sending them back, so why couldn't the EK just leave back the way he came. 

[Mr. Death]

I've been wondering about this.  Harry Summoned and "trapped" the Erlking in DB.

But when Harry summoned Chauncy and the LOA, when the conversation was done, the one summoned just left.  Not through the Circle, but back the way they came.  Harry didn't mention anything about releasing them or sending them back, so why couldn't the EK just leave back the way he came.

They were just different spells. Summoning Chauncy and the Loa were probably simpler circles -- just Harry's standard summoning circle, meant to call them and to keep them within the circle, but not binding them in place. He went the extra mile with the Erlking's circle to constrain and bind him in place.

[LordDresden2]

The short answer is that she's not Human anymore, she's now both Fae and a mantled Immortal (cell phones and all).

Has JB confirmed that?

[Quantus]

Has JB confirmed that?

Id like to say yes with certainty, but people often interpret statements that I see as clear and unambiguous in decidedly unexpected ways, so here's the main WOJ Im looking at.  He states outright that it's an automatic transition to Fae, though he gets more ambiguous when specifically talking about the Soul.  In CD we see that she no longer has a Murphionic field despite all her magic.  In Cold Case we see firsthand how see is now Bound by all the normal Fae restrictions on Lying, Bargaining, etc. 


Combine these three things and it adds up to her entirely being an Immortal (unless we think her Mantle is somehow not working fully yet and she might still be killed by mundane circumstances) and entirely a Fae (as any Changeing would be post-Choice).  Past that all we know is that she will loose her soul, automatically someday, at least to the functional threshold by which it makes no difference (ie the philosophic question of whether Mab retains any fragments), but that she hasnt lost it all yet. 

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36681.0.html
The other question I had is, **unintelligible**…when a human takes on the mantle of a Fae, do they automatically become Fae? Do they lose their soul?

Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their **unintelligible**. But a lot of the other Fae who were there, including the Erl and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they  might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.

**Audience laughter**

But on the other hand, she’s kinda cool with that. She’s used to that role. So anyway, we’ll have to see what happens to her, but, uh, there’s a lot of choice involved **unintelligible** as far as soul goes. Everybody always talks about souls as if it’s something you can have a receipt for, that if you lose it, then it’s just gone, and I don’t think souls work that way, I think that there’s too much attached to them, I think that there are too many things that consist of what your soul is, so I don’t think this is kinda trying to figure “did you lose your soul?”, because I think you can lose your soul without bothering to stop by any kind of supernatural beings whatsoever. You know, if you watch the news, you’ll see people who do that all the time. But yeah, as far as The Dresden Files goes, as far as eternal damnation, etc., goes, no I don’t think that’s as much an issue for Molly as yet, it could sometime though. Whether Mab has some kind of spark of a soul left or not, that’s one of those questions that would be very difficult to answer, and I’m probably not smart enough to answer it. Probably, when you’ve gone so far down the road, just pure power is madness, it’s hard to hang on to your soul. And it depends on how people who have been handed all this extra stuff deal with it, and what that’s going to do for them in the long run. And it’s one of those long run kind of things, meaning you’re going to be stuck like that for 2,000 years, you don’t really have to go bad tomorrow, you have plenty of time yet to start growing mold on your conscience.

**Audience laughter**

[exartiem]

The number of things you can do to someone with their True Name is pretty horrific.  You can use it to subvert their free will, compel them to commit certain acts.  You can paralyze them, blind them, curse them or outright kill them. 

Ferro used just a portion of Harry's name and had a frightening effect on him.

I think you can summon a mortal.  You had just better be stronger than them.

[jonas]

I have a HUGE problem with this quantus, how does Odin do it with Kringle yet stay 'more' mortal than the others?
Discounting EK entirely you could say the Winter 'king' is similar to the knight in that it's only a part of a greater whole, but then exactly what is Kringle connected to and why?(i'd be partial to 'ole Saint Nick being a rep for Lucifer lol, but not as an idea I see meritable connections towards)

This is exactly what bothers me about Molly and the WL mantle, she at some point made a subconscious matrix style choice that allowed a supernatural entity, for lack of a better description, to possess her and immediately drive out her soul? Something feels just so off about that, in lack of complexity of action if nothing else. Seems to me the Fairy mantles themselves are something that would be pain in TWG's teams side.

[LordDresden2]

Id like to say yes with certainty, but people often interpret statements that I see as clear and unambiguous in decidedly unexpected ways, so here's the main WOJ Im looking at.  He states outright that it's an automatic transition to Fae,

That's the part I consider ambiguous at best.

though he gets more ambiguous when specifically talking about the Soul.  In CD we see that she no longer has a Murphionic field despite all her magic.  In Cold Case we see firsthand how see is now Bound by all the normal Fae restrictions on Lying, Bargaining, etc. 


Combine these three things and it adds up to her entirely being an Immortal (unless we think her Mantle is somehow not working fully yet and she might still be killed by mundane circumstances) and entirely a Fae (as any Changeing would be post-Choice). 

Immortal no doubt.  I'm sure she'd be as hard to kill as Maeve or Titania.  (Though I'm also sure that there are ways to do it.  We know it can happen on Earth on Halloween Night, and we know that the Queens can set up special circumstances where it can happen.  If there are 2 ways, I'd bet that there are others, even if nobody knows them outside the royals.)

It's the idea that Molly is now a Sidhe that I consider questionable.  We know that half-Sidhe can become full Sidhe by choice, but as far as we know Molly isn't half-Sidhe.  If she is, Charity has some 'splainin to do.

I don't doubt the Mantle can force her to follow the Sidhe codes, more or less.  Harry's mantle can force him to follow Winter Law or lose its power, too.  That doesn't make him Sidhe.

I don't consider her use of the cell phone conclusive.  Indicative, yes, but it's always dangerous to generalize from a single sample.

Past that all we know is that she will loose her soul, automatically someday, at least to the functional threshold by which it makes no difference (ie the philosophic question of whether Mab retains any fragments), but that she hasnt lost it all yet.

Hmmm...I wonder if even that's a certainty.  I'd like Uriel's input on the certainty of it.  It may be a case of 99.9% likely, but not 100%, like Harrr or Tam Lin and the WK mantle.

[Quantus]

That's the part I consider ambiguous at best.

Immortal no doubt.  I'm sure she'd be as hard to kill as Maeve or Titania.  (Though I'm also sure that there are ways to do it.  We know it can happen on Earth on Halloween Night, and we know that the Queens can set up special circumstances where it can happen.  If there are 2 ways, I'd bet that there are others, even if nobody knows them outside the royals.)

It's the idea that Molly is now a Sidhe that I consider questionable.  We know that half-Sidhe can become full Sidhe by choice, but as far as we know Molly isn't half-Sidhe.  If she is, Charity has some 'splainin to do.

I don't doubt the Mantle can force her to follow the Sidhe codes, more or less.  Harry's mantle can force him to follow Winter Law or lose its power, too.  That doesn't make him Sidhe.

I don't consider her use of the cell phone conclusive.  Indicative, yes, but it's always dangerous to generalize from a single sample.

Hmmm...I wonder if even that's a certainty.  I'd like Uriel's input on the certainty of it.  It may be a case of 99.9% likely, but not 100%, like Harrr or Tam Lin and the WK mantle.

It turns out Changlings do not have to be first-generation, which is the best explanation for Molly that Ive been able to come up with (otherwise her soul was put in jeopardy without her consent, which is repeatedly said to be Against The Rules). WOJ is that the heritage can be further back, but the more diluted it is, the more "environmental" exposure needs to happen before the magic heritage awakens.  This is the only way I can explain Molly getting drafted the way she was, and her training with Lea would account for it.  It would also explain the repeated mention of how the Carpenter women won the genetic lottery (they're part sidhe!)

Question among my @HarriedWizard RPG group for @longshotauthor : would changelings be sterile? and if not how would the genetics work?
@DeusSolis @HarriedWizard No, not at all.  And cautiously.
@DeusSolis @HarriedWizard Consider it a dormant gene group that could potentially be activated by environmental exposure.
@longshotauthor @HarriedWizard So a half-elf changeling could have kids that when exposed 2 faerydom, child could exhibit faery qualities?
@DeusSolis @HarriedWizard Yeah, though they'd need more exposure the wider the generation gap was. It would be impractical at some point.

We saved the big topic that came out of things, last time Fae reproduction and society came up.  There's probably a lot of crossover with this thread's topic:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48514.0.html