Summoning Question

[sonwarrior]

If I recall correctly, we have not seen in-story any instance of a mortal being summoned. However, the first and last lines of SF basically say that Harry can be summoned. WOJ has also implied that this is an indicator of the power level Harry will reach by the time we're done with him.

So will Harry become non-mortal or is this an instance of Jim using the early books to nail down how things work?

[LordDresden2]

If I recall correctly, we have not seen in-story any instance of a mortal being summoned. However, the first and last lines of SF basically say that Harry can be summoned. WOJ has also implied that this is an indicator of the power level Harry will reach by the time we're done with him.

So will Harry become non-mortal or is this an instance of Jim using the early books to nail down how things work?

I'm not sure a free-willed being can be 'summoned', as such.  If you could summon a mortal, most mortals would take a long time to get there, given traffic, since most mortals don't have the ability to teleport in.

Also, even if you could summon a mortal, and had his full name, it would only work for a little while before it lost its power,  because of free will again.

[sonwarrior]

That is what I was thinking. I'm confused about when Harry says, "My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden. Conjure by it at your own risk." (SF pg 2). Since the series is written as a reflection of post BAT Dresden we're supposed to envision Harry as a super powerful being giving an ultimatum you wouldn't want to take. However, with the difficulties you mentioned above, this would be a useless ultimatum if he were merely human. So what Butcher do to remain true to Harry's character while still bestowing Harry with the requisite dehumanizing abilities/mantles.

[Zaphodess]

Summoning is not the only way to use someone's true name. The word being used is "conjure".

[Mira]

  I always took "conjure" to mean to use his name for magical purposes or against him as opposed to summoned.  Harry has said that names are powerful and was very careful in how he said his name.  I always took that last line as Harry's way of saying, "I dare you.."  Remember in his head when he battled the Outsider in Cold Days he used his full name..

[Snark Knight]

Since the series is written as a reflection of post BAT Dresden we're supposed to envision Harry as a super powerful being giving an ultimatum you wouldn't want to take.

Well, the case files are supposed to have been written fairly late in his career.

It's not guaranteed even Harry will actually survive the BAT, though.

[Mr. Death]

A true name is a link you can use in the spell; it's like having a tooth, or a clip of hair in that way. If Sells had had Harry's True Name in Storm Front, he could've used that in the spell against Harry instead of his hair.

Same with how Harry uses Elaine's True Name to open up a communication with her in White Night.

[Quantus]

A true name is a link you can use in the spell; it's like having a tooth, or a clip of hair in that way. If Sells had had Harry's True Name in Storm Front, he could've used that in the spell against Harry instead of his hair.

Same with how Harry uses Elaine's True Name to open up a communication with her in White Night.

Both true, though I get the sense that using just a Name for general thaumaturgy is more difficult than a physical item, though it might be along the same lines of circles with imagined detail (as Harry tends to use) vs the more elaborate "full ritual" style he does occasionally (and amateurs do more often).  We know the "type" if link makes a difference on how much energy can be pushed through it.  Blood carries the most, but it cannot dry out.  Hair works if the ragged edge matches up to something still on your head.  Stubble from a shaved beard works but is too small to carry much energy. 

[Mr. Death]

It is more difficult in the sense that you have to pronounce the full name exactly correct, and for humans at least, their true names change with time and growth.

The True Name of a college kid might not be the True Name of that same person once they get married and have a kid.

The danger of a true name seems, to me, to be that it replaces a physical link and there's no way to "track" it. If you clipped Harry's hair, he can use his own spell to track down the lost locks. But if you know Harry's True Name, you could know it in secret and he'd have no way of tracking down who has it.

[Quantus]

It is more difficult in the sense that you have to pronounce the full name exactly correct, and for humans at least, their true names change with time and growth.

The True Name of a college kid might not be the True Name of that same person once they get married and have a kid.

The danger of a true name seems, to me, to be that it replaces a physical link and there's no way to "track" it. If you clipped Harry's hair, he can use his own spell to track down the lost locks. But if you know Harry's True Name, you could know it in secret and he'd have no way of tracking down who has it.

I figure it's not just the pronunciation, but that it's also one more detail you have to be Perfectly holding in your mind, in addition to all the other things (formulae etc that he says is the base of all casting).  I see it as similar to doing Fire magic with or without a rod, though it may well be no more complicated than leveraging your subconscious to do some of the heavy lifting. 

[LordDresden2]

I'm not sure a free-willed being can be 'summoned', as such.  If you could summon a mortal, most mortals would take a long time to get there, given traffic, since most mortals don't have the ability to teleport in.

Also, even if you could summon a mortal, and had his full name, it would only work for a little while before it lost its power,  because of free will again.

An addendum to my quoted post:  I'm not sure how that would play out with 'special cases'.  For ex, Molly.  We're not exactly sure what she is, currently.  She's the Winter Lady, but is she also still human?  If she's still human, what is the status of her free will?

I think you might could Summon Molly, free will or not, because in her case what you'd be Summoning would not be Molly so much as the Winter Lady Mantle, which carries Molly with it.  Likewise, you might in theory be able to summon Harry's mantle and have it carry Harry along.

But...I would also hazard that if Harry and Molly retain mortal free will, they might could fight your summons.  If you do your summoning ritual just exactly right, Mab or Titania or the Mothers probably have to come.  But Molly I think it might be a contest of will, and even more with Harry, since his mantle is closer yet to mortal and made for mortals.

[Serack]

Harry is going to be summoned to the Mirror Mirror universe by his evil doppelganger. 

[Quantus]

An addendum to my quoted post:  I'm not sure how that would play out with 'special cases'.  For ex, Molly.  We're not exactly sure what she is, currently.  She's the Winter Lady, but is she also still human?  If she's still human, what is the status of her free will?

I think you might could Summon Molly, free will or not, because in her case what you'd be Summoning would not be Molly so much as the Winter Lady Mantle, which carries Molly with it.  Likewise, you might in theory be able to summon Harry's mantle and have it carry Harry along.

But...I would also hazard that if Harry and Molly retain mortal free will, they might could fight your summons.  If you do your summoning ritual just exactly right, Mab or Titania or the Mothers probably have to come.  But Molly I think it might be a contest of will, and even more with Harry, since his mantle is closer yet to mortal and made for mortals.

The short answer is that she's not Human anymore, she's now both Fae and a mantled Immortal (cell phones and all).  But, and this is apparently key, she did not instantly loose her Soul, which is what grants Free Will.  She will "inevitably" loose it, but it's more a progression than a light-switch. 

One theory I really liked to explain it was that as an immortal she lost the ability to naturally regenerate her own soul like normal, so she's stuck in an attrition game but can regain soul from loved ones (via hugs and emotional contact, etc).


Regarding summoning, it's described as a sort of imposed OCD on the target.  If you are a mortal summoning a Mortal, does that qualify as a violation of the Laws, being an imposed mental compulsion?

[khadgar4606]

Harry is going to be summoned to the Mirror Mirror universe by his evil doppelganger.

Okay you have the name right but the psyche might be diffrent

[Serack]

Regarding summoning, it's described as a sort of imposed OCD on the target.  If you are a mortal summoning a Mortal, does that qualify as a violation of the Laws, being an imposed mental compulsion?

This.  This is the underlying question I'm concerned with.