Author Topic: Many Questions on Proven Guilty  (Read 13961 times)

Offline dspringer1

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2017, 02:35:56 PM »
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Molly was most likely the target of the so-called Black Council. Sandra Marling met her long before PG. She could have recognized her potential as a wizard and that her family connection placed her very well to act against the Knights of the Cross. The Knights are a target the BC acts against, it wasn't a complete coincidence that Michael was there in Grave Peril. Imagine Molly as an undiscovered warlock with her psychomancy fully developed on the side of the BC (Nemfected, maybe with a Coin). There lies the apocalypse.

Plausible and well thought out.  Does not feel right to me.   The knights are not about stopping outsiders, although they obviously can.  If you are right, this could be a side plot of the outsiders to distract the knights at the point where they want to finish the council.   Does not explain why the fetches were there though - and without the fetches the plot you described would not work. 





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Mab and the Gatekeeper work more closely together than we knew at the time. I think they had the same information and maybe even decided together to share it with Harry, thus getting him on the playing field. The BC was up to something at that con in Chicago and it involved Black Magic. Nothing specific. Mab didn't know it was Molly at first or she could have done something more directly. Or get the GK to act, he is WC after all. Neither did she have plans to recruit her as a possible Winter Lady at that time. She didn't even know then that she would need one. And dragging her to Arctis Tor might have get her killed or her sanity ripped off her. Mab's first order of business was removing the prize from the hands of the BC, once she determined it was her (or Harry determined for her, he was the one who sent the Fetches right to the source of the black magic). Turning her into an asset instead in the long term by letting Harry take care of her: cherry on the top.

So the gatekeeper created the situation by hinting to Mab she investigate -- and Mab's investigation had the side effect of creating the situation.   Maybe.  But then you have all these high level players getting involved into something that is only important because all these high level players get involved.  It is a somewhat circular argument.

Do not get me wrong.  It may well be that there was some important reason for all these people to get involved, but all I am arguing is that nothing in the book identifies that reason.   All we got now is "important people are involved".










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As to who fixed Little Chicago: I think it was the Gatekeeper. It would make sense for him to check on Harry, making sure he wasn't in on it either. He didn't fully trust Harry. His decision to send him the note might have been a test. If he observed him, he could have checked his apartment and lab for signs of suspicious activities. Little Chicago would have been interesting to him from a purely nerdy pov and he might have decided to not let Harry die from a stupid accident before he found out what was up with the young man.

As good an answer as anyone can provide.  Too little info here for me (at least) to have an informed opinion other than to exclude obvious "not" candidates

Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2017, 05:13:48 PM »
So the gatekeeper created the situation by hinting to Mab she investigate -- and Mab's investigation had the side effect of creating the situation.   Maybe.  But then you have all these high level players getting involved into something that is only important because all these high level players get involved.  It is a somewhat circular argument.
Na, neither of them created the situation. The situation was created by the BC. They reacted to it. That's something else entirely.

Look at where Mab is standing at the beginning of PG: Arctis Tor was attacked. She was able to defend it, but it cost her. She identified some of the attackers, but probably not all of them. But she knew two things: Hellfire was being used (i. e. Denarians) and there might be a traitor in her ranks, because the enemy did get entirely too close. The additional info about Nemfection from Cold Days suggests another fear of her: Nemfection in Summer or Winter.

She doesn't know who exactly is on the enemy team, but she has some leads. Because she isn't stupid, she investigates before acting further. Hence the lockdown between Summer and Winter she imposed. No blind rushing into action when your enemy wants you to rush into action.

WAG: One of her leads shows a completely unrelated instance of random black magic in the vicinity of a situation she is observing anyway.

Completely unrelated isn't something she blindly believes in. That's why she sent the Fetches (spies as well as assassins). To investigate and if the opportunity presented itself, eliminate.

At the end of PG, she has gained knowledge (and gotten rid of some enemy chess pieces like Glau). The objective of the enemy's plot was discovered and their weapon (Molly) turned neutral and quite likely into a future asset: not as future Winter Lady (yet), but as a powerful wizard fighting for her team if she needed it.

Would Mab really care about Molly or Michael (or the White Council)? Of course not. Not personally. But she cares about power plays and the Knights of the Cross (and the WC) are the enemy of her enemy. At least at that moment. And it's also generally a good idea to prevent your enemy from getting what they put a lot of effort into achieving. As a matter of principle.

Offline dspringer1

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2017, 03:55:21 PM »
I get it now.  You see the attack on Arctus Tor preceding the arrival of the fetch.   Mab sent the fetch to investigate afterwards and the events in the con are just collateral damage.   Could be.

Lets diagram the events to see if this makes sense
* Mab makes it a point of arranging beacons on the mortal world for when she needs to send her spies to that world. 
* Sandra Marling is one of those agents - which is why she organizes horror cons.  Sandra arranged for "darby" to be there just in case she needs a spike in fear, but she realizes Molly is a mage and can perform this function as well. So she gives Molly the idea to use fear when she gets the word a strong beacon is needed. 
*  Then when Arctus Tor is attacked (perhaps to make sure Winter does not interfere in the planned attack on the white council, Mab uses this contingency and sends her fetches through to find out information.
*  Fetches feed by their nature -- an unavoidable consequence of sending powerful fetches into a horror con.  Mab obviously did not prohibit this behavior -- and not clear she could (under winter law) force a creature act outside its nature with strong cause
* Fetches realize this path is going to be plugged and take Molly back home with them as a psychic snack.   
* Maybe  a little nudge here or there from Uriel or gatekeeper to make sure Molly is involved and taken to Arctus Tor. 

Is this correct?


If yes, questions
*  Why did Mab not destroy the attackers.  She is VERY  powerful and could certainly call in as many winter allies as needed.  No way a few Denarians and wizards could challenge her at Arctus Tor and survive.
*  Why wait days without a response at Arctus Tor while the events proceeded at Earth.   Yes she is collecting info, but why not summon new/stronger guards
*  Why the erratic behavior of Mab overall in this space.  Not her anger - her behavior that looks like madness





Offline Rasins

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2017, 07:43:06 PM »
I have to say that I'm still unconvinced that Thorned Namsial is the one who was throwing around hell-fire at AT.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 10:01:35 PM »
I have to say that I'm still unconvinced that Thorned Namsial is the one who was throwing around hell-fire at AT.
Very unconvinced here too.
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Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2017, 08:33:21 AM »
I get it now.  You see the attack on Arctus Tor preceding the arrival of the fetch.   Mab sent the fetch to investigate afterwards and the events in the con are just collateral damage.   Could be.

Lets diagram the events to see if this makes sense
* Mab makes it a point of arranging beacons on the mortal world for when she needs to send her spies to that world. 
* Sandra Marling is one of those agents - which is why she organizes horror cons.  Sandra arranged for "darby" to be there just in case she needs a spike in fear, but she realizes Molly is a mage and can perform this function as well. So she gives Molly the idea to use fear when she gets the word a strong beacon is needed. 
*  Then when Arctus Tor is attacked (perhaps to make sure Winter does not interfere in the planned attack on the white council, Mab uses this contingency and sends her fetches through to find out information.
*  Fetches feed by their nature -- an unavoidable consequence of sending powerful fetches into a horror con.  Mab obviously did not prohibit this behavior -- and not clear she could (under winter law) force a creature act outside its nature with strong cause
* Fetches realize this path is going to be plugged and take Molly back home with them as a psychic snack.   
* Maybe  a little nudge here or there from Uriel or gatekeeper to make sure Molly is involved and taken to Arctus Tor. 

Is this correct?


If yes, questions
*  Why did Mab not destroy the attackers.  She is VERY  powerful and could certainly call in as many winter allies as needed.  No way a few Denarians and wizards could challenge her at Arctus Tor and survive.
*  Why wait days without a response at Arctus Tor while the events proceeded at Earth.   Yes she is collecting info, but why not summon new/stronger guards
*  Why the erratic behavior of Mab overall in this space.  Not her anger - her behavior that looks like madness

Not quite the way I see it. You're assuming Mab is behind Molly's problems. And behind Sandra Marling. I'm assuming her enemies are, the BC. The cluebats in the book are
  • the Hellfire being used at Arctis Tor. This isn't just something dropped in there for later use.
  • Sandra Marling possible connection to Mavra (the shelter)
  • a Knight of the Cross' daughter being corrupted by Sandra Marling
  • the Gatekeeper helping in mysterious ways
They establish the teams. Mab is working against whoever tried to use Molly as a weapon (against the Knights among other things). The GK too. They are helping Harry or rather using him. Molly is ideally placed to cause a lot of damage if she became full warlock on the BC side. Even if the WC caught her and executed her, it would be useful. Imagine Michael's reaction if he found out they beheaded Molly. There would be dead wizards lying in that warehouse, among them maybe the Merlin and Morgan.

The Fetches didn't execute Glau because he was a loose end on their side. That's Harry's assumption then. They killed him as soon as they found out he was BC.

Mab didn't wait to get Molly out of their reach. She did it as soon as she found out.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 04:55:04 PM by Zaphodess »

Offline knnn

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2017, 02:47:26 PM »
It's getting a little dated now (over 6 years old, and before we ever heard about Nemesis), but worth a read:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26853.0.html

Elegast wrote an update post-Nemesis here:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html

« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 02:53:50 PM by knnn »
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Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2017, 06:31:45 PM »
It's getting a little dated now (over 6 years old, and before we ever heard about Nemesis), but worth a read:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26853.0.html

Elegast wrote an update post-Nemesis here:

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,35451.0.html
Oldies but goodies, in other words classics.  :)
These threads got me into thinking more about Molly's potential as the center-piece of the action in PG.

For example, why did Maeve help in the rescuing mission when she was Nemfected at the time? Imo, that's where Harry is spot-on when he said to Eb at the end that they'd tried to use Mab and Mab had turned the tables on them. Molly was supposed to be a promising chess-piece for the BC. They protected her from being found by the Fetches (the black murk, Sandra Marling getting her off the scene by getting Harry to confront the police holding her there). But Mab found her (with Harry's help). She was lost to the BC at that point. Best use would be to make her death relevant. So they helped with the rescue, hoping that they'd saw some conflict between the WC, Winter, the KotC, whatever played out best in the spur of the moment really. And preferably with some key players dead in the end. But Mab gambled and trusted in Harry's ability to see Molly through without a further escalation. And it paid off.

Offline jonas

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2017, 06:38:14 PM »
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Mab didn't wait to get Molly out of their reach. She did it as soon as she found out.
What the fetches? they were always there to fetch her for a queen of winter.
*rereading, I realized that was your intent. Good point on Glau though.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 02:10:56 AM by jonas »
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2017, 02:51:51 PM »
What the fetches? they were always there to fetch her for a queen of winter.
*rereading, I realized that was your intent. Good point on Glau though.

Jonas - I don't think so.  I don't know that Mab knew yet what Molly's purpose was going to be, let alone a queen.  But we do know that Mab eventually thought that Molly would be a better fit in Summer.
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Offline jonas

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2017, 11:58:43 PM »
Jonas - I don't think so.  I don't know that Mab knew yet what Molly's purpose was going to be, let alone a queen.  But we do know that Mab eventually thought that Molly would be a better fit in Summer.
Depends on why you think she ended up in AT really? But if Lea is dropping cluebats all over the place about wanting Molly, one thinks her boss might know why if nothing else. Purely from that, Mab wanted potential candidates for both summer and winter to be groomed. She just assumed wrongly. And i'd point out as she 'thought' her daughter would be best suited to replace her other daughter,probably came from a more personal and emotional reaction than logical reasoning. The Molly starborn theory would explain any interest directly but,

Alternatively, using what I call the Magicians Info Dump(which is just a reference to the fact it's a misdirection, he'll talk about one bit of magic and it will actually explain pieces of another form or connection elsewhere) DB proves if one is taken out of commission or intentionally withheld from your duty a proxy can/must be sent.
There were two potential proxies in PG. Mab withheld the WK from his duty, if a legitimate duty arose she would have had to send a proxy or providing dereliction of duty allowed the originator of WQ to act in the imbalance, MW. We know it's precisely in an imbalance they can act. So perhaps Mab had little to do with it herself at first.
But then they returned to AT with her, why? Well, when we get there Mab's unknowingly hidden on ice. But if she had at some point completed her icy tomb to help exercise N from lea, and prevent influence in herself, She needed a proxy queen she could trust at worst or a Lady sub at best. Either way someone had to shoulder the proverbial world while atlas stepped away so... I believe Molly has already been Winter Queen.
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Offline Rasins

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2017, 02:09:27 PM »
Jonas,

Are you saying that when Molly was take to AT in DB, she was forced into playing the part of a queen?  Like a foreshadowing of her taking on the Lady's reigns?
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Offline jonas

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2017, 11:26:37 PM »
Jonas,

Are you saying that when Molly was take to AT in DB, she was forced into playing the part of a queen?  Like a foreshadowing of her taking on the Lady's reigns?
Entirely possible, if you mean PG, not DB ;)
I try to keep idea's pared down to one topic/theory at a time, but a lot of my theories start to interconnect and be dependent on one another. I find it becomes more palatable that way. Here is one that backs it though, i'll try to point out assumptions made from other idea's.

The BC connections/hidden baddie basically gives Molly the idea to use magic to cause fear. Using the forces of creation to do so. The direct result from the 'good guys' side is to kidnap and feed upon said person, intentions be damned that's what they did. They ate pieces of her life force, digging into her soul a bit like happened to her brother.
Directly after that we get the knowing look from Scarecrow(Which iirc the Loup gives Harry too? Idk, somebody shares that look/description) followed by a speech saying more or less he's from beyond human memory... He should be in oblivion!?
*I love the whole batman, sleepy hallow thing going on in PG btw

So fast forward to some future events, Lea is training Molly how to use fear as a weapon without violating Council Laws, using grey area's that don't take away choice. Later on an outsider called Fearbringer in truth is born into the world and Molly ends up WL in the same book.
Those events are directly related, despite what Mab might 'think', Lea was always training Molly into the Winter side. It's all she knows and the 'mirror' that drew in the WL mantle. Something explained in a 'slight of hand' in PG on how spirits find beacons in the mortal world to come through. This is how the Ladies mantles find hosts and how N and company find things to influence.

Tangent:N gets influence into mortals but mortals change so it's not such a threat, but Wizards can also birth things into their thoughts, literally becoming more of such a thing by using their magic that way. So if their using magic that doesn't align with reality, that makes them more of a mirror for an outside presence then a slow possession takes grip. Where in the end it's not so much they took control, as they became them in truth. Hence Warlocks are born, and Wardens who trap outsiders get repurposed with killing deranged magic users. They're one and the same thing. They just didn't get born with all their horrible power at start (this is also why I say Naagloshi and those who walk the path of a Naagloshi are the same thing).

Now, where was I... Ok, so Molly was a beacon for fearbringer but the Fetches ate the Nfection out of her, this is why fearbringers functionality is based on the scarecrows body type. He's an amalgamation of all the fear Mollys identity/soul caused. He gets a cloth shroud because Molly's been leaving Harry's death shroud, that which he was last seen wearing before death, at the scenes of her fear inspiring deaths. SHE'S molding how fearbringer is shaped.
She's the new version of whom made the Mantle of Mab, the starborn of THAT star. Which is not a common idea behind starborn, I know) But what if these millions of starborn are just incarnations of specific stars and the reason why none of them do as much as Dresden is the same reason Mortals aren't as susceptible to N, they don't have the power to birth much of their original mold, for lack of a better word, into the world. Instead of all these mantles being simply broken down graces, they are fragmented portions of the same cosmic identity. Leading to characters/ immortal incarnations with very similar stories and abilities. GK domain is moon, stars farther, outside. All the Greco-Roman gods were planets in our system, so not so much 'star'born as 'celestial body born'?
So Mab's origin is as Fearbringer, Molly's the newest incarnation. That they were trying to use to displace Mab's power and they wanted to become Mab's power(which again, Mab could even thinkMolly's more suited to Summer while knowingly prepping her winter, to show yet another foil)

Oh yea, ok so. When PG was going down Molly was already exhibiting traits of being a Winter Queen. I feel their overall goal was to corrupt not only a potential bearer of WL or Q, but to try to bogart that power like the LoONs did and influence how the WQ power was distributed in reality. That the consciousness the power of the entire courts was separated from on the stone table would again have hold. FB has the same 'power' as Mab but is 'deeper' in a necromantic sense. Older.
Mab's precise reasoning depends on the order of events at AT, but I see it close to this. Mab on the other hand may have known she would be the most precise reflection of WQ besides the Lady so had to bind her with the fetches before she could leave, leaving an Nfected mortal WQ or L behind(depends on where the Mauve situation was in linear time, hard to say). Weakened, unconscious, being fed upon, even if N managed to take root there wouldn't be any power to act. So Mab was covering her rear and siphoning off Nfection of a major player in the future of the power behind the Queens.

Leaving off a whole other tangential theory on Who the courts were made from, what they represent in the DF, their previous role in reality, ect. It would take a lot of space and expo. I will say, in SK the color of horse that the Lady/Queens were on was the start of that.

Questions?
« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 11:56:41 PM by jonas »
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Offline Kindler

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 03:23:12 PM »
In my opinion, I think that, if anyone has foreknowledge into the events of Proven Guilty, it's the Gatekeeper (obviously). I think the Gatekeeper clued Harry in to increase the odds that Molly's life would be saved, that she would become his apprentice, and would eventually succeed Maeve. Not that he knew precisely that all of that would happen, more that he sensed she'd be important, and that he saw probabilities, and acted accordingly. I think Bob gave the infodump on foresight for specifically this reason; the Gatekeeper was playing a much longer game, against the Outsiders, and acted with support of the Winter Court, with which he is demonstrably on decent, if not excellent, terms.

Proven Guilty doesn't take place in a vacuum, and I think the events of the previous book really played into things. I think the Gatekeeper saw some of the future possibilities change when Harry didn't die as was fated in Dead Beat, after things quieted down from the Red Court attacks. Harry became a Warden, struck up a good friendship with Ramirez and Luccio, Butters wasn't outright murdered by Grevane (and subsequently learns to deal with his fear a bit, starting his journey to becoming a Knight), the Erlking (who becomes important again in Changes and Cold Days, arguably the two most critically important books to the over-arching storyline) basically high-fives Dresden for resurrecting Sue, Luccio switches bodies, Morgan develops a grudging almost-not-quite-respect for Harry (which matters in Proven Guilty, at the ending trial), Mavra ends up with the Word of Kemmler, Grevane and Corpsetaker die, Cowl fails the Darkhallow, Thomas is disturbed enough by the events of the book to take night classes and start up his hair salon, and, probably most important, Murphy's flower garden gets messed up (sarcasm).

It's even possible that, if Harry had died, Molly might not have started practicing with her magic—her example and stated influence dying an early, undignified death on the street might have turned her off, though that's really, really stretching things.

The point is that all of these major, major events, involving really, really important players in the Grand Scheme only happen because Harry isn't killed in the first hundred pages of Dead Beat, which, if Gard is to be believed, was supposed to happen. There's no way I can see that the Gatekeeper, who seems to have an oddly acute sense of the future, didn't feel some kind of upheaval in possible futures with all of the changes that took place over the course of a day or two.

I think he felt it, and acted as best he could to steer Molly back onto the right track, because he sensed she'd be important, and he saw that she'd just be tried and executed without Harry's involvement.

As for Mab,  Winter has had interest in Molly for years at that point. Aside from her own considerable talents, influence over Molly provides influence over Michael, (or, and this is a serious, insanely wild guess, Amanda, who is my candidate to wield Amoracchius next).

I think that Mab saw an opportunity and took it, sending the Fetches to literally Fetch her, in order to give her incipient Knight a Fairy Tale Quest (during which he learns about the attack on Arctis Tor), and save Molly's life.

I think she suspected that Summer was the infected Court, which is why she wanted to save Molly—she already had Sarissa as a backup for Maeve—and why she was posturing on the Summer border. I think she might have actually been protecting the White Council from Summer, preventing them from joining in with the Reds.

She only knew that Lea was infected at this point. I think she figured out that Maeve was infected from the attack on Arctis Tor, which happened to be right when she had sent her main force away.

Remember, it wasn't Mab that called back Winter's forces, but pouring Summer fire into the Well. I do think that Mab intended that to happen once she realized that Maeve was Infected, but also wanted to see how Summer would react to Winter's sudden withdrawal; if they turned on the White Council, she'd know, and her forces were still close enough to turn around if she needed them to.

'Course, all of this could be just plain ol' bloviating.

I'm not sure whether that was actually Mab encased in ice or just a projection of her, watching things unfold. If it was her, she might have done it as a measure to prevent infection. I still have no idea how Nemesis is spread; the athame is implicated as the vector of transmission, but is it just by touch, prolonged exposure, or what?

As for who fixed Little Chicago, I have no clue. The Gatekeeper would be pretty cool.

Offline Zaphodess

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Re: Many Questions on Proven Guilty
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2017, 11:01:58 AM »
Eb on Rashid's role:
Quote
Likely he knows already. Knew already. Maybe even pointed you in a direction that would show you more. Assuming he wasn't simply using you to poke a hornet's nest and see what flew up.