Butcher Battle 17#: Tavi vs Nicodemus

[Griffyn612]

If Tavi has Fury crafting he absolutely destroys Nicodemus.  I haven't seen anything from Nicodemus to indicate he would last more than a few moments against Tavi.  Super human strength from his earth fury, super human speed with a sword or any metal, fire, water manipulation, healing, flight, wind manipulation, wood manipulation.  He has a lot of tools and he doesn't require a blasting rod or any focus objects.

By the end of the book he was very much in control of his abilities.

I thought the elements had to be present for him to tap their potential?  Other than Demonreach, he's not going to have an abundance of all the Fury types at any given time.

I guess I need a refresher on Alera, because I'm having a hard time picturing him tapping an abundance of nature Fury potential in downtown Chicago.  Medieval cities in Alera were weaker when it came to Furies; imagine what a modern city would do. 

[groinkick]

I thought the elements had to be present for him to tap their potential?  Other than Demonreach, he's not going to have an abundance of all the Fury types at any given time.

I guess I need a refresher on Alera, because I'm having a hard time picturing him tapping an abundance of nature Fury potential in downtown Chicago.  Medieval cities in Alera were weaker when it came to Furies; imagine what a modern city would do.

That's the problem with cross story fights.  He "should" have access to them on DR as they seem to stay with him even if he travels to another continent in the Alera series.  I don't recall furies being weaker in Alera.  If he for example lost contact with the earth, he'd be cut off from his Earth fury.  But asphalt, concrete ect are products of the earth so I don't know if he'd lose that power.  :shrug:

[Griffyn612]

That's the problem with cross story fights.  He "should" have access to them on DR as they seem to stay with him even if he travels to another continent in the Alera series.  I don't recall furies being weaker in Alera.  If he for example lost contact with the earth, he'd be cut off from his Earth fury.  But asphalt, concrete ect are products of the earth so I don't know if he'd lose that power.  :shrug:

See, I thought he was tapping the latent power of Furies in the environment around him. 

The weakness around the cities was shown in that City dwellers had weaker (and fewer) Furies than rural dwellers.  The suggestion, at least to me, was that as humanity moved away from the natural environment, their connection with the Furies weakened as well.  But since the Furies themselves were described as weaker, I think it suggests that cities aren't the ideal environment for them.

Which would suggest that any similar presence in modern cities in the Dresdenverse would be similarly dampened.

In the alley/hotel/hades fights, there'd probably be enough stone and metal for him, but wind/fire/water would be scarce.

The train fight would be interesting, as he'd have metal and wind.

The Shedd fight would be the best source for a water fight. 

Of course, with Nico knowing about Tavi, he'd probably know that his power was suppressed in his youth.  I wouldn't put it past Nico to find a way to duplicate the effect under the right conditions, using Cassius for any spells necessary.

And picturing Tavi fighting all the Denarians is intriguing.

[Rasins]

See, I always thought that the furies in the city were simply the same furies that were local to the area before the humans, but they'd been used so much, and for so long that they were beyond just tame, they were completely broken and had no will of their own any longer.

[Griffyn612]

See, I always thought that the furies in the city were simply the same furies that were local to the area before the humans, but they'd been used so much, and for so long that they were beyond just tame, they were completely broken and had no will of their own any longer.

I can't recall what the books suggested.  I thought there was a Bernard conversation where a couple people speculated, but didn't come to a conclusion.

Now, if I recall, it's hard for a crafter to simultaneously use conflicting furies.  Did Tavi ever get over that, or does that still apply?

In other words, wood/metal, fire/water, air/earth combos don't work.  That would affect what abilities he'd have in different scenarios.

[Kindler]

I can't recall what the books suggested.  I thought there was a Bernard conversation where a couple people speculated, but didn't come to a conclusion.

Now, if I recall, it's hard for a crafter to simultaneously use conflicting furies.  Did Tavi ever get over that, or does that still apply?

In other words, wood/metal, fire/water, air/earth combos don't work.  That would affect what abilities he'd have in different scenarios.

There was a good conversation in Academ's Fury between Max and Tavi about whether or not human perception of furies made them different. The difference between nature-area furies and city ones is that in the wild areas, people were able to manifest discrete furies, like Bernard does frequently with Brutus. That's the real handicap Tavi has; he never had anything discrete, and had to do everything himself. In terms of lack of "finesse," it was described that Tavi had great strength, but wasn't able to do as many things at once as Kitai, who wasn't able to do things as strongly as he.

Being "cut off" from the source isn't enough to cancel out the abilities furies give a furycrafter; they have to be specifically countered. For example, to prevent Amara from escaping in the opening chapters of Furies of Calderon, she's buried up to her neck in the earth. The earth prevents her from summoning Cirrus—without being able to summon him, she can't fly. But if she was surrounded by fire, for example, she can still summon him.

In short, you're right about conflicting furies; there's no getting past that. But, because Tavi has access to all of them, he'd have to be collared to lock him down completely.

That is something I can see Nic arranging. He did, after all, have access to thorn manacles to hold Harry, so I'm sure he'd be able to whip up some similar effect.

That said, Tavi takes Badass Normal to new levels. He was the only muggle in a world of superhumans, and managed to fight Canim without the use of his furies at all, and still win, not to mention the various fights against strong furycrafters that he won with skill alone.

If he's got furycrafting, I don't see any of the three main encounters going in Nic's favor. His sword would be shattered in the opening exchanges, and that's if Tavi didn't decide to simply char him to a crisp from a distance. Even when he inevitably took to the air to escape, Tavi would be able to chase him down.

If Nic managed to capture him first, as he did Harry in Death Masks, I can absolutely see him collaring him, though, rather than keep him under running water, which would likely render all other conflicts moot.

In short, in a one-on-one fight, Tavi wins; if Nic gets the drop on him (unlikely—remember what watercrafting does for his situational awareness, and he'd sense the metal from his sword), Nic can collar him and kill him. I don't think he'd even bother trying to recruit him, either; he'd be too dangerous to keep around, unlike a poverty-stricken wizard with a host of complexes.

In chess, I give Nic the edge. Ludus is a wargame, not chess, and I think Tavi would be disappointed at the lack of a skyboard. 3D chess, on the other hand...