Standard Warden Equipment?

[Shift8]

We haven't seen much of the new guard in action.  With most of the older wardens dead, it opens an opportunity for Carlos and his Young guns to bring a modern mentality to the group. 

I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing updates to their methodology.  Even if they're selfmade, we could see Carlos and Co. wearing spell-worked leathers beneath their cloaks, shoulder holsters with enhanced hand guns, and gear belts with anything they could need.Seems more likely for Harry to be surprised to find a room of wardens wearing these.  And Carlos would take the opportunity to point out that he made Harry's style look good.

The cloak looks good too. Definitely more appropriate for operations where you dont want everyone to notice you. At the very least they need more assault rifles though. I think Marcone has had the right idea about that from day 1.

[Griffyn612]

The cloak looks good too. Definitely more appropriate for operations where you dont want everyone to notice you. At the very least they need more assault rifles though. I think Marcone has had the right idea about that from day 1.

It'd be an interesting twist, to have the young wardens modeling themselves after a man the old guard distrusted.

The thing is, we know JB likes the button/vest look, considering he did a similar look for Grimm in the Cinder Spires...

He wore his uniform was cut and designed identical to the Fleet uniform, accept that the leathers are jet black instead of blue and trimmed in blood red instead of gold. There were two broad stripes at the end of each sleeve—indicating rank of captain—and skull-shaped buttons.

And then proceeded to make the outfit for himself.


There's even a version with red trim. Maybe have regional commanders have such distinctions.

[Quantus]

It'd be an interesting twist, to have the young wardens modeling themselves after a man the old guard distrusted.

The thing is, we know JB likes the button/vest look, considering he did a similar look for Grimm in the Cinder Spires... And then proceeded to make the outfit for himself.


There's even a version with red trim. Maybe have regional commanders have such distinctions.

If Im not mistaken, He said at one point that it was the other way around: Grimm was written to match a cosplay he already had.   

[Zaphodess]

Folks, don't you think the Wardens would use more standardized gear if it was practical and actually better than the alternative? They have to be practical about things like that or they wouldn't survive. A loopy wizard never leaving his highly warded cold tower can get away with being, well, a bit loopy, but the Wardens don't.

btw: I'd bet that the baby Wardens initially received some help such as ready-made potions, cloaks with protections on them and the like. Maybe they still use it, maybe they've figured out how to make stuff that suits them better in the meantime. We don't know.

[wyltok]

Veteran Wardens sat on either side of Ancient Mai, dour in their grey cloaks, and three more were sitting or crouching elsewhere in the boat—all of them from the hard-bitten squad that had been on standby back in Edinburgh. They were all armed to the teeth, and their expressions meant business.

[...]

Each individual wizard has his own particular quirks when it comes to how he uses his power. There is no industrial standard for how fire is evoked into use in battle. One of the Wardens coming up behind me sent forth a stream of tiny stars that slewed through the night like machine-gun fire, effortlessly burning holes through trees, rocks, and grey men with equal disdain. Another sent a stream of fire up in a high arc, and it crashed down among several grey men, splashing and clinging to any moving thing it struck like napalm. Lances of scarlet and blue and green fire burned through the air, reminding me for a mad
moment of a scene from a Star Wars movie. Steam hissed and snarled everywhere, as a swath of woodland forty yards across and half as deep vanished into light and fury.

Hell’s bells. I mean, I’d seen Wardens at work before, but it had all been fairly precise, controlled work. This was pure destruction, wholesale, industrial-strength, and the heat of it was so intense that it sucked the air out of my lungs.

Dresden doesn't go into details, but it does appear as though Wardens do have their equivalent to SWAT gear. We just don't know what it is, and from the passages above, it does appear as though the Council favors customization.

[Zaphodess]

Dresden doesn't go into details, but it does appear as though Wardens do have their equivalent to SWAT gear. We just don't know what it is, and from the passages above, it does appear as though the Council favors customization.

Armed to the teeth does not equal uniformed. The passage you cited below explicitly says there is no industrial standard (for fire evocation, but I think it can be generalized to the ways wizards fight). Look at it this way: Wizard A can create huge fireballs and wreak tremendous destruction for hours on end with them. Wizard B is an earth specialist who can create literal killer earth quakes. Both of them might also carry guns, maybe wizard B does, but wizard A thinks that the additional weight slows him down without adding much benefit to what he can do with his magic. They have both been Wardens for over a hundred years now. I'd assume they know very well why they made which choices about the weapons they carry and those they leave behind.

[Mr. Death]

Armed to the teeth does not equal uniformed. The passage you cited below explicitly says there is no industrial standard (for fire evocation, but I think it can be generalized to the ways wizards fight). Look at it this way: Wizard A can create huge fireballs and wreak tremendous destruction for hours on end with them. Wizard B is an earth specialist who can create literal killer earth quakes. Both of them might also carry guns, maybe wizard B does, but wizard A thinks that the additional weight slows him down without adding much benefit to what he can do with his magic. They have both been Wardens for over a hundred years now. I'd assume they know very well why they made which choices about the weapons they carry and those they leave behind.

Look at Dead Beat. Ramirez and the rest of the junior wardens are described as being armed with the same set of handguns and grenades.

[dspringer1]

And Carlos would take the opportunity to point out that he made Harry's style look good

Totally true

[Zaphodess]

Look at Dead Beat. Ramirez and the rest of the junior wardens are described as being armed with the same set of handguns and grenades.

Luccio and Morgan didn't and Luccio's not the kind of person who doesn't keep up with the news.

If you want to have fun arguing that the more experienced persons on a job somehow know less about how to do it than the newbies, go ahead. I do not want to fall into that particular trap.

[Quantus]

Luccio and Morgan didn't and Luccio's not the kind of person who doesn't keep up with the news.

If you want to have fun arguing that the more experienced persons on a job somehow know less about how to do it than the newbies, go ahead. I do not want to fall into that particular trap.

It can happen, after all being Hidebound is a natural human thing and the Council as a whole has that reputation.  But that would not be a danger under Luccio specifically, who is both far too practical for such nonsense and personally interested in modern technology enough to make a study of it. 

[Mr. Death]

Luccio and Morgan didn't and Luccio's not the kind of person who doesn't keep up with the news.

If you want to have fun arguing that the more experienced persons on a job somehow know less about how to do it than the newbies, go ahead. I do not want to fall into that particular trap.

Not so much that they know less about how to do it, as two factors:

1. Luccio and Morgan are already two of the toughest battle wizards on the planet; they've been doing the job for centuries and decades, so they have enough confidence in their own martial abilities and probably don't feel they need guns (though if I'm not mistaken, Luccio is described as having a revolver at one point).
2. Ramirez and the others are untested newbies, so the guns and grenades are a crutch. They're simple, reliable technologies that they can use without effort in situations where their comparatively untested magic might be a liability.

On encountering a room full of Reds, Luccio would just be able to instantly fry them with a precision blast of fire since she's been doing it forever and knows exactly what to do in the heat of the moment. Fresh-out-of-boot Warden Yoshimo doesn't have that experience, so she can fall back on throwing a grenade into the room instead of making an attempt at magic.

There's also longevity to consider. Bear with me while I talk some RPG stuff.

Magic taxes mental resources. In the game, this is tracked with the stress track, and the TL;DR is, your average PC wizard can sling four or five spells in a single conflict before they start giving themselves serious mental damage (think Harry burning himself out in Fool Moon). There's a couple ways around this for extended fights for the average PC wizard

1. Enchanted items like Harry's rings, which store a spell and don't tax the wizard to use -- these take up character creation resources that are limited and have a cost to increase
2. Guns and mundane equipment -- these are effectively "free"

Now, older, more powerful wizards have access to other tricks -- the Paranet Papers adds Mental Toughness powers which, among other things, adds a bunch to the stress track.

With the highest level of that power (which someone like the Merlin or Ebenezer might have), a wizard can cast 10 spells before they start running out of juice.

So that's the difference, really -- for longevity purposes, someone at lower levels like Ramirez is going to go with guns as a "cheap" way to last more rounds in a fight without giving himself a crippling migraine, while someone like Luccio has built up enough mental strength they can just keep casting even after their younger comrades are tapped.

[Shift8]

Not so much that they know less about how to do it, as two factors:

1. Luccio and Morgan are already two of the toughest battle wizards on the planet; they've been doing the job for centuries and decades, so they have enough confidence in their own martial abilities and probably don't feel they need guns (though if I'm not mistaken, Luccio is described as having a revolver at one point).
2. Ramirez and the others are untested newbies, so the guns and grenades are a crutch. They're simple, reliable technologies that they can use without effort in situations where their comparatively untested magic might be a liability.

On encountering a room full of Reds, Luccio would just be able to instantly fry them with a precision blast of fire since she's been doing it forever and knows exactly what to do in the heat of the moment. Fresh-out-of-boot Warden Yoshimo doesn't have that experience, so she can fall back on throwing a grenade into the room instead of making an attempt at magic.

There's also longevity to consider. Bear with me while I talk some RPG stuff.

Magic taxes mental resources. In the game, this is tracked with the stress track, and the TL;DR is, your average PC wizard can sling four or five spells in a single conflict before they start giving themselves serious mental damage (think Harry burning himself out in Fool Moon). There's a couple ways around this for extended fights for the average PC wizard

1. Enchanted items like Harry's rings, which store a spell and don't tax the wizard to use -- these take up character creation resources that are limited and have a cost to increase
2. Guns and mundane equipment -- these are effectively "free"

Now, older, more powerful wizards have access to other tricks -- the Paranet Papers adds Mental Toughness powers which, among other things, adds a bunch to the stress track.

With the highest level of that power (which someone like the Merlin or Ebenezer might have), a wizard can cast 10 spells before they start running out of juice.

So that's the difference, really -- for longevity purposes, someone at lower levels like Ramirez is going to go with guns as a "cheap" way to last more rounds in a fight without giving himself a crippling migraine, while someone like Luccio has built up enough mental strength they can just keep casting even after their younger comrades are tapped.

I think I agree with most of this, but one caveat.

Guns in the DV are not a secondary option per-se. There are many tactical situations where their utility exceeds that of magic. I believe that Dresden straight up says this several times in the series in one way or another. Its also how someone like Murphy remains useful.

Firearms are generally much faster to engage than magic seemingly is. And as you said, they cost nothing to use. A magic spell is often times going to require alot of mental effort, and the same practitioner must also be making tactical decisions at the same time.

Bullets  have the following advantages over "most" of the evocation we see in DV.

-Bullets reach the target faster. You can dodge a fireball, not a bullet.
-Bullets are more accurate for the above reason.
-Firearms are generally longer ranged.
-They do not give off magical warnings.
-They are faster to deploy and use. You can pull a trigger faster than you can do most magic.

Magic appears to have the following advantages:

-Raw destructive power. No bullet is going to blow a werewolf out the back of a police station and down the street.

-Defensive magic, like the duster or kinetic shieds.

-General magical utility spells. This category is so large I cant define it well. But think veils, lock picking, tracking spells etc.

[Zaphodess]

Mr. Death, I completely agree with you, that's what I've been trying to say in fact. 

Shift8, your argument is only true to a degree. The Wardens fight beings who simply aren't affected that much by bullets (or maybe bombs). Think about Marcone's defenses in Even Hand. Guns and bombs are useful. Just not always. And there is a reason that older wizards seem to prefer other weapons. In the case of Luccio, we now know from "A fistful of Warlocks" that she used to carry guns and considered herself to be a good markswoman. I think it's likely that she still carries one (or even more), as might other old Wardens. They just don't seem to use them that much.

What the Council really should think about is not equipping the wizards like modern special forces. It's working together with modern special forces. The way Harry and Murphy do all the time. Harry does the wizarding - which means in practice that he provides the defense most of the time - and Murphy shoots.

[Mr. Death]

I think I agree with most of this, but one caveat.

Guns in the DV are not a secondary option per-se. There are many tactical situations where their utility exceeds that of magic. I believe that Dresden straight up says this several times in the series in one way or another. Its also how someone like Murphy remains useful.

Firearms are generally much faster to engage than magic seemingly is. And as you said, they cost nothing to use. A magic spell is often times going to require alot of mental effort, and the same practitioner must also be making tactical decisions at the same time.

Generally, perhaps, but refer to Harry's inner monologue as the duel starts in White Night -- a White Court vampire might be able to pull and fire a gun pretty fast, but Harry has his shield up at the speed of thought and is able to outdraw him.

The most practiced wizards can do that kind of thing on instinct and reflex, and can do more than a gun can (like fire their magic in an arc over cover, for instance).

Bullets  have the following advantages over "most" of the evocation we see in DV.

-Bullets reach the target faster. You can dodge a fireball, not a bullet.
-Bullets are more accurate for the above reason.
-Firearms are generally longer ranged.
-They do not give off magical warnings.
-They are faster to deploy and use. You can pull a trigger faster than you can do most magic.

A fireball, perhaps. Other spells are nearly as instant -- like Harry's gravity spell. Yes, it took him a couple minutes to set up, but that's because Earth isn't one of his man elements. Someone who specialized in Earth magic could pull it off at the speed of thought.

Magic appears to have the following advantages:

-Raw destructive power. No bullet is going to blow a werewolf out the back of a police station and down the street.

-Defensive magic, like the duster or kinetic shieds.

-General magical utility spells. This category is so large I cant define it well. But think veils, lock picking, tracking spells etc.

Yeah, bullets are good, but they literally only do one thing. Magic can do more or less anything the spell-slinger can come up with at the given time.

Mr. Death, I completely agree with you, that's what I've been trying to say in fact. 

Shift8, your argument is only true to a degree. The Wardens fight beings who simply aren't affected that much by bullets (or maybe bombs). Think about Marcone's defenses in Even Hand. Guns and bombs are useful. Just not always. And there is a reason that older wizards seem to prefer other weapons. In the case of Luccio, we now know from "A fistful of Warlocks" that she used to carry guns and considered herself to be a good markswoman. I think it's likely that she still carries one (or even more), as might other old Wardens. They just don't seem to use them that much.

What the Council really should think about is not equipping the wizards like modern special forces. It's working together with modern special forces. The way Harry and Murphy do all the time. Harry does the wizarding - which means in practice that he provides the defense most of the time - and Murphy shoots.

While guns might not be able to do the kind of damage magic and superpowers can, they are at least potent as a symbol. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, but one of the RPG books has a paragraph about how when guns come out, it sends the message that whoever's involved is willing to use lethal force and that gets everyone's attention, even the people who are effectively bulletproof.

[Shift8]

Generally, perhaps, but refer to Harry's inner monologue as the duel starts in White Night -- a White Court vampire might be able to pull and fire a gun pretty fast, but Harry has his shield up at the speed of thought and is able to outdraw him.

The most practiced wizards can do that kind of thing on instinct and reflex, and can do more than a gun can (like fire their magic in an arc over cover, for instance).
A fireball, perhaps. Other spells are nearly as instant -- like Harry's gravity spell. Yes, it took him a couple minutes to set up, but that's because Earth isn't one of his man elements. Someone who specialized in Earth magic could pull it off at the speed of thought.
Yeah, bullets are good, but they literally only do one thing. Magic can do more or less anything the spell-slinger can come up with at the given time.
While guns might not be able to do the kind of damage magic and superpowers can, they are at least potent as a symbol. I can't find the exact reference at the moment, but one of the RPG books has a paragraph about how when guns come out, it sends the message that whoever's involved is willing to use lethal force and that gets everyone's attention, even the people who are effectively bulletproof.

That is why I "many" tactical situations where guns are outright superior. Many, not all. Harry outright states quite a few times in the books in one manner or another that firearms are more useful than magic in many circumstances. It is also made pretty clear that this utility is what keeps mortals generally relevant, both from the general manner the plot unfolds and direct character statement.

Also most spells are not instant, and when they are, they are probably more mentally straining. Not just magically tiring. While the travel time of a spell might be instant in some cases, the mental time might not be. Once evocated, who knows. The question is how much mental time and effort does it take to cast the evocation or other spell. Even most well practiced spell will have a minimum time that cannot be exceeded. A gun is just a trigger pull. Sure, there might be some spells that are faster too, this dynamic might cut both ways depending. But its pretty clear from the combat in the books which way the pendulum seems to swing for most practitioners and most spells. Its not only the wizards that make this evident, but also their enemies, whose bulk use of firearms allows them to remain relevant and dangerous.

Just keep in mind the thing Harry said was most dangerous to him was sniper.

Quite frankly one of the best things about the DV is that technology is still quite relevant while magic remains quite powerful as well. Its what makes the DV fun for me. Magic + Guns. Yeah!