Standard Warden Equipment?

[Quantus]

This is a valid point, but I think you take it too far.  After all, nobody says police should avoid wearing Kevlar simply because criminals would "expect it" and counter it.  It helps often enough that it is worthwhile making standard equipment for police operating in dangerous areas/missions.   

That's because Kevlar is the only stop in town for armor against modern weapons; which are all basically just guns.  If there were qualitatively distinct armor options (say magnetic/energy armor vs physical) or if other weapons were more common (say Flamethrowers) then the arguments might be comparable. 

Nobody is saying that equipment makes the warden.  Each warden is primarily going to rely on their own personal (and individualistic) magic.   However, some needs are very standard.  Every warden will be attacked by physical weapons (bullets, blades, claws).  Issuing each warden a standard form of protection vs this very common risk makes sense.   It is certainly not going to be the only defense a warden has.  But it is something that every warden will find useful and it can easily save a lot of warden lives.   

For example -- harry has his shield bracelet and his duster.  The duster would be the equipment that sometimes saves his life, but the shield bracelet is his personal defense and the item that saves his life more often.  The duster would be the example of "issued equipment" as it is very general purpose and unintelligent.  It requires no interaction with the wizard.  We have seen other examples of such devices like in the duel with the White court vamps where one had a item to protect against magic. 

But who's to say that Harry's brand of Shield that is a force-wall is universally superior enough to Carlos' Entropy-based shield to the point where all wardens should standardize to that method.  His Duster has been pounded through an awful lot.   

Other devices cannot be made by others.  For Harry, the bracelet is far more flexible, but has to be created by Harry as it is really just focusing his own personal magic. 

I dont think this is actually true so long as you know the principles the object functions on.  Harry can use a Borrowed staff without difficulty. 

All I am arguing is that it makes sense for the White Council to issue "some" magical equipment to each warden.  We have not seen evidence of this (as of yet), but it makes sense.

Fair.  The Swords would have qualified as such while they were still possible.  Though I suppose it's worth noting that the only example we have of standard issued equipment was something that had to be individually crafted to suit each Wizard's unique Magic and Mindset, despite them all apparently being functionally identical. 


There is also the matter of the Burden of Upkeep.  Per WOJ the vast majority of Harry's time goes to basic maintenance on each of his gizmos, or they eventually get worn down by the sunrises and need to be re-enchanted.  Each item that is Standard Issue is one more timesink for each warden, translating to one less item of personal/optomized usage they can maintain themselves, or less time they can actually be doing the Job of a Warden.

[jonas]

@Dspringer, to compound on what Quantus said, it's a matter of knowing the weakness. Kevlar doesn't do jack against knives so i'm sure if criminals could get ahold of some fletchet guns they would use them, or armor piercing or anything else they can snatch up and they often do. they lack the broad organization or motive to widely distribute said objects though. To bring this into comparison to the DF, Someone figured out how to block wizards off from their magic and multiple groups went about making their own version and freely distributing them. so greater enemies plus greater resources equals need for greater flexibility.

[Quantus]

@Dspringer, to compound on what Quantus said, it's a matter of knowing the weakness. Kevlar doesn't do jack against knives so i'm sure if criminals could get ahold of some fletchet guns they would use them, or armor piercing or anything else they can snatch up and they often do. they lack the broad organization or motive to widely distribute said objects though.

Yup, as I recall it Ballistic Batons and Knives (aka modern-day spring-driven crossbows) started to become illegal more or less in line with the availability of Kevlar to the general public.  I always wanted one as a kid but my dad said they were too dangerous...

To bring this into comparison to the DF, Someone figured out how to block wizards off from their magic and multiple groups went about making their own version and freely distributing them. so greater enemies plus greater resources equals need for greater flexibility.

And to point to a specific example, Thorned Namsiel was able to go right through Harry's shield using variances in magical "frequency" (in SmF).  It was an impressive bit of Evocation there because it was done on the Fly, but if that shield were common enough to be a majority approach, the Counter spell would become equally more common.  Wizards' powers are based on Preparation, and so their defense against it is a balance of Surprise and Secrets, or else you've given your enemies all they need to do said Preparation. 

I think a better analogy for spells is Cyber-security rather than physical weaponry, where there is always an implicit functional Secret that must be maintained.   

[Mr. Death]

Wizards' powers are based on Preparation, and so their defense against it is a balance of Surprise and Secrets, or else you've given your enemies all they need to do said Preparation.

Yeah, among the biggest reasons a standardized Warden kit won't happen is that the average wizard has the mindset of, "I'm not going to tell you what I can do, just in case I have to use it against you."

I think there's WOJ that that's the reason Harry's never told anyone Nicodemus's weakness -- if he ever gets the noose, he doesn't want everyone to know how to kill him with it.

[Quantus]

Yeah, among the biggest reasons a standardized Warden kit won't happen is that the average wizard has the mindset of, "I'm not going to tell you what I can do, just in case I have to use it against you."

I think there's WOJ that that's the reason Harry's never told anyone Nicodemus's weakness -- if he ever gets the noose, he doesn't want everyone to know how to kill him with it.

I was picturing the more altruistic "If I tell you what I can do You or somebody you tell will have plenty of time to Counter it."  But ya, that too.   

[Griffyn612]

This is a valid point, but I think you take it too far.  After all, nobody says police should avoid wearing Kevlar simply because criminals would "expect it" and counter it.  It helps often enough that it is worthwhile making standard equipment for police operating in dangerous areas/missions.   

Nobody is saying that equipment makes the warden.  Each warden is primarily going to rely on their own personal (and individualistic) magic.   However, some needs are very standard.  Every warden will be attacked by physical weapons (bullets, blades, claws).  Issuing each warden a standard form of protection vs this very common risk makes sense.   It is certainly not going to be the only defense a warden has.  But it is something that every warden will find useful and it can easily save a lot of warden lives.   

For example -- harry has his shield bracelet and his duster.  The duster would be the equipment that sometimes saves his life, but the shield bracelet is his personal defense and the item that saves his life more often.  The duster would be the example of "issued equipment" as it is very general purpose and unintelligent.  It requires no interaction with the wizard.  We have seen other examples of such devices like in the duel with the White court vamps where one had a item to protect against magic. 

Other devices cannot be made by others.  For Harry, the bracelet is far more flexible, but has to be created by Harry as it is really just focusing his own personal magic. 

All I am arguing is that it makes sense for the White Council to issue "some" magical equipment to each warden.  We have not seen evidence of this (as of yet), but it makes sense.

It sounds like what you're suggesting is that there be more spells laid in to the cloak.  Along with the "doesn't stain with blood" spell, you'd add spells like those on Harry's duster, and fashion them in a way that the "refresh" was handled by simple magical power being poured into it.  Spells that would accept magical energy in a certain way that novices could do, and use it to recharge.

[wyltok]

However, some needs are very standard.  Every warden will be attacked by physical weapons (bullets, blades, claws).  Issuing each warden a standard form of protection vs this very common risk makes sense.

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. The main purpose of the wardens isn't to fight wars against other Accord nations: it's to police against warlocks who break the 7 Laws. From what we've seen, most often warlocks are equipped with magic and little else. From that perspective, the Council already used to issue wardens the ideal tool for their job: spell-breaking swords. Shame that the artisan who fashioned them is currently indisposed.

Kevlar is a tool against guns, and the swords were tools against warlocks. Presumably, the Brute Squad at Archangel had superior equipment, since they were the actual equivalent to the military for the Council, before their untimely demise.

[kazimmoinuddin]

Wardens are known for 2 things, their cloaks and the swords. Most of the attention goes straight to the sword, so the cloak is likely for the more subtle magics, those not that readily apparent.

[jonas]

Wardens are known for 2 things, their cloaks and the swords. Most of the attention goes straight to the sword, so the cloak is likely for the more subtle magics, those not that readily apparent.

Green/grey hides blood, plus blends by distorting sharp edges/outlines from color variances.
Aaaannnd the Wardens wear grey cloaks, work for the white council and fight black magic. Not a coincidence, no?

[dspringer1]

That's because Kevlar is the only stop in town for armor against modern weapons; which are all basically just guns.  If there were qualitatively distinct armor options (say magnetic/energy armor vs physical) or if other weapons were more common (say Flamethrowers) then the arguments might be comparable. 

Sure we do. We can equip police with leather jackets, steel breastplates, shields, helmets, and all sorts of things.  We do not because these items are either rarely useful or suffer major liabilities.     For a similar reasons, I would not see wardens being routinely equipped with anti-ghost charms, mind shields, salve to see through fey illusions or any number of specialized defenses or attacks.   But common attacks – especially non-magical attacks -  or common tools are something that can be easily incorporated.   That is why cops are often issued batans.  Not because they are the primary weapon, but because it is a simple tool that is often useful.  That is the type of magical equipment I expected the council to issue. 

But who's to say that Harry's brand of Shield that is a force-wall is universally superior enough to Carlos' Entropy-based shield to the point where all wardens should standardize to that method.  His Duster has been pounded through an awful lot.

I suggested general purpose items that provide passive defense or some other useful non-combat function make a lot of sense.  Foci of any sort are very specific to the mage and it would be tough to make one for another that would be super efficient.   Harry might be able to use Eb’s staff as Eb trained him, but not as effectively as his own staff.  Using the Merlin’s staff would be even less effective.   The point of issued equipment is that it works no matter the specific strengths of the wizard vs common threats/use cases.  It is a supplement, not a replacement for the wizards magical abilities. 

There is also the matter of the Burden of Upkeep.  Per WOJ the vast majority of Harry's time goes to basic maintenance on each of his gizmos, or they eventually get worn down by the sunrises and need to be re-enchanted.  Each item that is Standard Issue is one more timesink for each warden, translating to one less item of personal/optomized usage they can maintain themselves, or less time they can actually be doing the Job of a Warden.

Upkeep is the cost of all magic items.  It does not matter who creates.   Upkeep certainly limits how many items a wizard can have, but making sure wardens have a small number of very well made general purpose items can easily save lives – and the warden can keep the maintenance going.   And if the warden does not want it, he can give it back.   Very experienced wardens probably have only their own self created gear, but younger wardens would really benefit from issued gear. 

And to point to a specific example, Thorned Namsiel was able to go right through Harry's shield using variances in magical "frequency" (in SmF).   

And I think that Kevlar vest will do diddly against a marine sniper rifle.  That is not an argument against wearing Kevlar as very few people pack marine sniper rifles.  Denarians are major league threats and few wardens would be easy going against any one of them.   Even if they did, the general purpose defense provided by the council would be only one of their defenses – and not the most important one. 

Standard equipment is a supplement that provides a minimum baseline of capability.   It is not a replacement for what the wizard can do and would never be the primary element in a wizard’s arsenal.   But this solid baseline can often make the difference between success and death/serious injury fro common situations.   Equally important (not just defense), common equipment can allow wardens to more easily work together, communicate, or effectively deal with issues outside their personal strengths.         

I'm not sure I agree with this statement. The main purpose of the wardens isn't to fight wars against other Accord nations: it's to police against warlocks who break the 7 Laws.

The White Council has had multiple wars and conflicts with other supernatural powers --- in the books we have seen them go to town against Formor, Rakashashas, references to several vampire wars, and vague references that indicate that wars are not uncommon among the supernatural set.   And all these bad guys use various non-magical threats along with any magic they can do.    The reality is that the wardens have probably been in many small conflicts, minor wars and several major wars in the last century or two.   They may exist to enforce the laws, but they are also a military force and are routinely expected to fight as such.   

[Shift8]

Wish I had seen this thread before I made the one I just made on guns.


What I would like to know is why the wardens dont standardize even non-magical gear. Wardens are often deployed to situations where max firepower is needed.

Why is there no standard assault rifle and or side arm?

What about helmets and armor?

Basically I see no reason why a set of wardens shouldn't just look like Delta force with magic. We know they use guns because they are superior to magic in many circumstances. Why not go all the way?

Plus everyone could magically enchant said items as they see fit.

[Shift8]

Sure we do. We can equip police with leather jackets, steel breastplates, shields, helmets, and all sorts of things.  We do not because these items are either rarely useful or suffer major liabilities.     For a similar reasons, I would not see wardens being routinely equipped with anti-ghost charms, mind shields, salve to see through fey illusions or any number of specialized defenses or attacks.   But common attacks – especially non-magical attacks -  or common tools are something that can be easily incorporated.   That is why cops are often issued batans.  Not because they are the primary weapon, but because it is a simple tool that is often useful.  That is the type of magical equipment I expected the council to issue. 



I suggested general purpose items that provide passive defense or some other useful non-combat function make a lot of sense.  Foci of any sort are very specific to the mage and it would be tough to make one for another that would be super efficient.   Harry might be able to use Eb’s staff as Eb trained him, but not as effectively as his own staff.  Using the Merlin’s staff would be even less effective.   The point of issued equipment is that it works no matter the specific strengths of the wizard vs common threats/use cases.  It is a supplement, not a replacement for the wizards magical abilities. 




Upkeep is the cost of all magic items.  It does not matter who creates.   Upkeep certainly limits how many items a wizard can have, but making sure wardens have a small number of very well made general purpose items can easily save lives – and the warden can keep the maintenance going.   And if the warden does not want it, he can give it back.   Very experienced wardens probably have only their own self created gear, but younger wardens would really benefit from issued gear. 


And I think that Kevlar vest will do diddly against a marine sniper rifle.  That is not an argument against wearing Kevlar as very few people pack marine sniper rifles.  Denarians are major league threats and few wardens would be easy going against any one of them.   Even if they did, the general purpose defense provided by the council would be only one of their defenses – and not the most important one. 

Standard equipment is a supplement that provides a minimum baseline of capability.   It is not a replacement for what the wizard can do and would never be the primary element in a wizard’s arsenal.   But this solid baseline can often make the difference between success and death/serious injury fro common situations.   Equally important (not just defense), common equipment can allow wardens to more easily work together, communicate, or effectively deal with issues outside their personal strengths.         



The White Council has had multiple wars and conflicts with other supernatural powers --- in the books we have seen them go to town against Formor, Rakashashas, references to several vampire wars, and vague references that indicate that wars are not uncommon among the supernatural set.   And all these bad guys use various non-magical threats along with any magic they can do.    The reality is that the wardens have probably been in many small conflicts, minor wars and several major wars in the last century or two.   They may exist to enforce the laws, but they are also a military force and are routinely expected to fight as such.

I think I am in agreeance on most of this, just look at my below post.

One caveat though that I think actually support your argument.

The standard issue armor the US army uses will absolutely stop a "sniper" round. If by sniper round you mean the 7.62 NATO or similar used by most "sniper" rifles. Soft Level 3 kevlar will stop any pistol round more or less, and the SAPI plate inserts will stop armored piercing full size rifle rounds, at least once if not several times.

[Aminar]

Fair amount by hobby expenditure standards, absolutely.  Fair amount as in equivalent to the Salary of a Full-time Job (even setting aside Hazard Pay), I still think Not Even Close.

Dude. Have you looked at how much Warhammer pewter minis cost. Now remove the mass production stuff that reduces costs. And make each mold unique. A few square miles of chicago would require more than a thousand hand crafted unique very detailed molds. Each one with shipping costs that are not offset by mass production. Little Chicago is in the 6 digit price range. If anything Jim underestimated the cost pre-3d printing.

[Shift8]

Wardens after Jim gives them the necessary standard gear for heavy operations:

Helmet enchanted against mind control. 3 in 1 blasting rod/staff/assault rifle. AT-4 for dealing with Mab. Eyepro to protect against soul gaze.

[Griffyn612]

Wish I had seen this thread before I made the one I just made on guns.


What I would like to know is why the wardens dont standardize even non-magical gear. Wardens are often deployed to situations where max firepower is needed.

Why is there no standard assault rifle and or side arm?

What about helmets and armor?

Basically I see no reason why a set of wardens shouldn't just look like Delta force with magic. We know they use guns because they are superior to magic in many circumstances. Why not go all the way?

Plus everyone could magically enchant said items as they see fit.

We haven't seen much of the new guard in action.  With most of the older wardens dead, it opens an opportunity for Carlos and his Young guns to bring a modern mentality to the group. 

I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing updates to their methodology.  Even if they're selfmade, we could see Carlos and Co. wearing spell-worked leathers beneath their cloaks, shoulder holsters with enhanced hand guns, and gear belts with anything they could need.

Wardens after Jim gives them the necessary standard gear for heavy operations:

Helmet enchanted against mind control. 3 in 1 blasting rod/staff/assault rifle. AT-4 for dealing with Mab.

Seems more likely for Harry to be surprised to find a room of wardens wearing these.  And Carlos would take the opportunity to point out that he made Harry's style look good.