Turn Coat Re Read Questions.

[jamescagney22]

1. In Turn Coat Listen to Winds mentions to Shagnasty that Harry nearly beat him without knowing the Dine yet alone the Old Ways. What other Old Ways was he referring to, since the Dine aka the Blessing Way seems to qualify as tradition in the oldest sense.
2. What did Listen to Winds and Ancient Mai do while the others were busy fighting the Grey Men? It did not seem like they accomplished anything notwithstanding the thrashing Listen to Winds gave to Shagnasty.

[ClintACK]

1. In Turn Coat Listen to Winds mentions to Shagnasty that Harry nearly beat him without knowing the Dine yet alone the Old Ways. What other Old Ways was he referring to, since the Dine aka the Blessing Way seems to qualify as tradition in the oldest sense.
2. What did Listen to Winds and Ancient Mai do while the others were busy fighting the Grey Men? It did not seem like they accomplished anything notwithstanding the thrashing Listen to Winds gave to Shagnasty.

1. The Dine is what the Navajo people call themselves.  The Old Ways would include the Blessing Way.

2. If I recall correctly, they were fighting the spider creatures.  Didn't LTW send a message asking Harry to ask the island to drop some trees that the spider creatures were using as shelter?

[rlaubscher]

LTW told Harry what to do via his connection to Demonreach. The Gatekeeper was the one who clued them in to Harry's bond with the island. That's why LTW was up there and saw Harry fighting with the Skinwalker. LTW and Ancient Mai were acting as rear guard while Harry, Ebenezar, and his impromptu strike force battled the Grey Men...

[jamescagney22]

1. The Dine is what the Navajo people call themselves.  The Old Ways would include the Blessing Way.

2. If I recall correctly, they were fighting the spider creatures.  Didn't LTW send a message asking Harry to ask the island to drop some trees that the spider creatures were using as shelter?

Well Listen to Winds implied the Dine was a way of magic in this context. The full quote was "The boy almost took you and he doesn't even know the Dine much less the Old Ways." I thought this implied that the Blessing Way was separate or another form of the Old Ways whatever that is.

[Quantus]

Well Listen to Winds implied the Dine was a way of magic in this context. The full quote was "The boy almost took you and he doesn't even know the Dine much less the Old Ways." I thought this implied that the Blessing Way was separate or another form of the Old Ways whatever that is.

The Dine is the culture as a whole, apparently the only culture with any lore for Shaggy's kind. The Blessing Way is what their Holy Men practice, which I took to be an actual Faith Magic, as opposed to LTW (still religious) more arcane school of magic

[wyltok]

Well Listen to Winds implied the Dine was a way of magic in this context. The full quote was "The boy almost took you and he doesn't even know the Dine much less the Old Ways." I thought this implied that the Blessing Way was separate or another form of the Old Ways whatever that is.

I think this is an example of first mentioning a general thing, then a specific thing about the general thing. Like others said, "Diné" is the Navajo name for themselves, and the Blessing Way is one of their religious practices. Using the same phrase for a different context: "He doesn't even know baking, much less how to make an upside down pineapple pie."

A more clunky way of saying it would be "Harry doesn't know the correct Navajo rituals. He's never met a Navajo in the first place."

[Quantus]

I think this is an example of first mentioning a general thing, then a specific thing about the general thing. Like others said, "Diné" is the Navajo name for themselves, and the Blessing Way is one of their religious practices. Using the same phrase for a different context: "He doesn't even know baking, much less how to make an upside down pineapple pie."

A more clunky way of saying it would be "Harry doesn't know the correct Navajo rituals. He's never met a Navajo in the first place."

That was my read. Something akin to a traditional Japanese person loosing a Sushi Cook-off to a Louisiana bumpkin that's never left their own state or even heard the word Sushi before. 

[jamescagney22]

Well I don't think Harry mentioned anything specific about Navajo rituals his except limited knowledge about the skin-walker so I don't know how that analogy works in this situation, and Listen to Winds is an expert on various folk-lore so I do not think he would make an misleading statement, unless I am missing something? But in any case I do think that idea of faith magic as the blessing way is accurate I am not too sure about the Old Ways being arcane magic at least in the European sense of the word.

[Quantus]

Well I don't think Harry mentioned anything specific about Navajo rituals his except limited knowledge about the skin-walker so I don't know how that analogy works in this situation, and Listen to Winds is an expert on various folk-lore so I do not think he would make an misleading statement, unless I am missing something? But in any case I do think that idea of faith magic as the blessing way is accurate I am not too sure about the Old Ways being arcane magic at least in the European sense of the word.

Huh? Nonono, I was comparing LTW's wizardry magic to something Arcane, as Opposed to the Blessing Way that is a Holy Man faith-based thing.  I dont think the reference to the "Old Ways" is a specific school of magic or anything; I think he was just saying "Harry doesnt even know about the Culture, let alone the Secret Lore, and he was still able to give you a hard time; Imagine fighting somebody who actually knows your history and weaknesses." 

[jamescagney22]

Huh? Nonono, I was comparing LTW's wizardry magic to something Arcane, as Opposed to the Blessing Way that is a Holy Man faith-based thing.  I dont think the reference to the "Old Ways" is a specific school of magic or anything; I think he was just saying "Harry doesnt even know about the Culture, let alone the Secret Lore, and he was still able to give you a hard time; Imagine fighting somebody who actually knows your history and weaknesses."

Well in hindsight I think the Old Ways are native magics as opposed to Hermetic style or Daiost mysticism or other shaman based magic systems as each part of the world has different traditions. Since Greco-Roman culture used writing more extensively as opposed to oral tradition I think that is why we know't here much about it.

[Quantus]

Well in hindsight I think the Old Ways are native magics as opposed to Hermetic style or Daiost mysticism or other shaman based magic systems as each part of the world has different traditions. Since Greco-Roman culture used writing more extensively as opposed to oral tradition I think that is why we know't here much about it.

In the case of the Skinwalker legends specifically, there is also the very real fact that they are culturally Taboo to even speak of them (at all to the limits of the oral tradition, but to outsiders in particular) so we're talking about an intentionally concealed cultural Secret. 

[jamescagney22]

In the case of the Skinwalker legends specifically, there is also the very real fact that they are culturally Taboo to even speak of them (at all to the limits of the oral tradition, but to outsiders in particular) so we're talking about an intentionally concealed cultural Secret.

Yeah I remember when JK Rowling got backlash for saying that in her universe skinwalkers were misunderstood wizards. I have always have had mixed feelings about seeing Native American culture used in popular fiction they are living breathing cultures, not someone's entertainment. Coachella eagle feathers etc...

[Dashkull]

1. In Turn Coat Listen to Winds mentions to Shagnasty that Harry nearly beat him without knowing the Dine yet alone the Old Ways. What other Old Ways was he referring to, since the Dine aka the Blessing Way seems to qualify as tradition in the oldest sense.
2. What did Listen to Winds and Ancient Mai do while the others were busy fighting the Grey Men? It did not seem like they accomplished anything notwithstanding the thrashing Listen to Winds gave to Shagnasty.

1) Well addressed already.

2) My guess is Mai and LTW did something on the order of what the fetch (we assume) did to slow Harry down in the second attack at the hotel in Proven Guilty. Threw up a kind of ward that slowed their progress, didnt actually damage or stop them. It would be something akin to make them feel like they were running through waist deep water, making it harder to move quickly and make them more exhausted by the time they reached the fight.

The bigger outstanding question is that Harry mentions that there were two summoners holding the gate open for the spiders. They leave well before anyone could get a look at them, which is what Eb is angry at Harry at for not investigating while he could instead of saving Thomas. One, of course, was Peabody. I have always assumed the other was Cowl, but it is not a proven fact. But it would, potentially, at least somewhat exonerate Mai and LTW from being there in that capacity. Assuming the other one WAS someone on the senior council (I think Harry believes that to be true) it leaves the Gatekeeper, Langtry, or Martha Liberty. Cirstos wasnt appointed yet but I guess it could have been him. I agree with Eb so far though, I think Cristos is just stupid not evil.

Or, of course, in the common parlance of these forums: OMG TIME TRAVEL HI-JINKS!!1!one

[Quantus]

The bigger outstanding question is that Harry mentions that there were two summoners holding the gate open for the spiders. They leave well before anyone could get a look at them, which is what Eb is angry at Harry at for not investigating while he could instead of saving Thomas. One, of course, was Peabody. I have always assumed the other was Cowl, but it is not a proven fact. But it would, potentially, at least somewhat exonerate Mai and LTW from being there in that capacity. Assuming the other one WAS someone on the senior council (I think Harry believes that to be true) it leaves the Gatekeeper, Langtry, or Martha Liberty. Cirstos wasnt appointed yet but I guess it could have been him. I agree with Eb so far though, I think Cristos is just stupid not evil.

Or, of course, in the common parlance of these forums: OMG TIME TRAVEL HI-JINKS!!1!one

Based on everything we've been told about the Nature of Intellectus, Im convinced that Harry just has not yet realized he has the capability to simply rewind and review those events.  It might take the Chamber of Reflection and/or a Spirit of Intellect to translate from Alfred to Harry's fragile brain-matter, but Alfred should be entirely capable and by virtue of the shared ability so should Harry. 

[jamescagney22]

1) Well addressed already.

2) My guess is Mai and LTW did something on the order of what the fetch (we assume) did to slow Harry down in the second attack at the hotel in Proven Guilty. Threw up a kind of ward that slowed their progress, didnt actually damage or stop them. It would be something akin to make them feel like they were running through waist deep water, making it harder to move quickly and make them more exhausted by the time they reached the fight.

The bigger outstanding question is that Harry mentions that there were two summoners holding the gate open for the spiders. They leave well before anyone could get a look at them, which is what Eb is angry at Harry at for not investigating while he could instead of saving Thomas. One, of course, was Peabody. I have always assumed the other was Cowl, but it is not a proven fact. But it would, potentially, at least somewhat exonerate Mai and LTW from being there in that capacity. Assuming the other one WAS someone on the senior council (I think Harry believes that to be true) it leaves the Gatekeeper, Langtry, or Martha Liberty. Cirstos wasnt appointed yet but I guess it could have been him. I agree with Eb so far though, I think Cristos is just stupid not evil.

Or, of course, in the common parlance of these forums: OMG TIME TRAVEL HI-JINKS!!1!one

2. Initially I thought they would use Earth/Water magic to use the island to slow them down but Listen to Winds needed Harry's help to clear the trees for the Wardens to let loose or it could have been more difficult then normal because of Demonreach and he was wounded. But that explanation makes more sense.

Based on everything we've been told about the Nature of Intellectus, Im convinced that Harry just has not yet realized he has the capability to simply rewind and review those events.  It might take the Chamber of Reflection and/or a Spirit of Intellect to translate from Alfred to Harry's fragile brain-matter, but Alfred should be entirely capable and by virtue of the shared ability so should Harry. 

I think he will discover Cowl's identity in Mirror Mirror where Alternate Harry will be working with the Black Council as an associate and Cowl lets his guard down for his "ally".