A warden's sword for Harry...

[Quantus]

When you consider that a Church is a "House of God" it makes sense that it wouldn't need much in the form of defense against someone OF God, as in a Denarian.

If a Denarian can literally flick an Archangel in the face, I dont think they have much in the way of Enforced Decorum regarding TWG

[jonas]

If a Denarian can literally flick an Archangel in the face, I dont think they have much in the way of Enforced Decorum regarding TWG

He posed no threat to him though. It was a calculated insult. On the other hand, glorified threshold, heh. Put your finger on it both of you did. Its God's House. That's equal to stepping into his inner sanctum, his power here on earth. Think about what that threshold is MADE of regardless of it being HIS home.

[Rasins]

If a Denarian can literally flick an Archangel in the face, I dont think they have much in the way of Enforced Decorum regarding TWG

To be fair, that was Nick, not Anduriel.  Yes, Anduriel was there, but it wasn't Archangel vs Fallen.

As ot Enforced decorum, I'm still unconvinced that the fallen, and even Lucy, aren't all part of TWG's plan.

[Quantus]

He posed no threat to him though. It was a calculated insult. On the other hand, glorified threshold, heh. Put your finger on it both of you did. Its God's House. That's equal to stepping into his inner sanctum, his power here on earth. Think about what that threshold is MADE of regardless of it being HIS home.

Not all that much, considering that in two different books we've had things break through it (GP and PG, ironically).

Assuming it works on the same principles as an actual Threshold, it would presumably vary based on the family-style Belief of those that actually Live there (ie the line-in clergy). So not only would they need to be honestly devout, they'd need to personally view the building as a Home (of themselves and of God) rather than a Public place or a business of any sort.  Not dissimilar to how Mort had to make very specific boundaries between his Home and his Home Office. 

[jonas]

Not all that much, considering that in two different books we've had things break through it (GP and PG, ironically).

Assuming it works on the same principles as an actual Threshold, it would presumably vary based on the family-style Belief of those that actually Live there (ie the line-in clergy). So not only would they need to be honestly devout, they'd need to personally view the building as a Home (of themselves and of God) rather than a Public place or a business of any sort.  Not dissimilar to how Mort had to make very specific boundaries between his Home and his Home Office.

No, it's not based on 'who lives there' in that sense. It's about who lives there in the technical sense of qualifying as a church. Now those qualifications... beyond my kin, I can see at least 3 different variations with more coming down the pipe, none of which solves for X. Churches despite possessing money aren't considered financial business's btw. That's why they get the tax breaks similar to non profit orgs. So you can have clergy living there or not, huge organizational monetary stability and still be considered a 'church'. I'd argue any valid church, molosk, ect. qualifies as long as it's to a monotheistic deity.

[Con]

No, it's not based on 'who lives there' in that sense. It's about who lives there in the technical sense of qualifying as a church. Now those qualifications... beyond my kin, I can see at least 3 different variations with more coming down the pipe, none of which solves for X. Churches despite possessing money aren't considered financial business's btw. That's why they get the tax breaks similar to non profit orgs. So you can have clergy living there or not, huge organizational monetary stability and still be considered a 'church'. I'd argue any valid church, molosk, ect. qualifies as long as it's to a monotheistic deity.

Hmm I think true belief would have to play into it as well. Particularly belief in your value's. Churches that are more about the tax break or establishing a cult (a fine line I know) may not get as much power as churches attended by and to faithful believers.

[Quantus]

No, it's not based on 'who lives there' in that sense. It's about who lives there in the technical sense of qualifying as a church. Now those qualifications... beyond my kin, I can see at least 3 different variations with more coming down the pipe, none of which solves for X.

I dont think it does, in the same way that a family member cannot contribute to a Threashold without actually Living behind it.  The "Family to Church" analogy is that no matter how Paramount Family is to a person, that one person cannot build a strong threshold alone, even if they are part of a massive dynasty.

Im not saying that being declared a House of God doesnt impart some sort of protection (though  to the best of my knowledge there's zero evidence), but if it operates the way you describe I think it's not a Threshold anymore, but rather some other Sanctification effect.   

[jonas]

I dont think it does, in the same way that a family member cannot contribute to a Threashold without actually Living behind it.  The "Family to Church" analogy is that no matter how Paramount Family is to a person, that one person cannot build a strong threshold alone, even if they are part of a massive dynasty.

Im not saying that being declared a House of God doesnt impart some sort of protection (though  to the best of my knowledge there's zero evidence), but if it operates the way you describe I think it's not a Threshold anymore, but rather some other Sanctification effect.

House of god is a bit more an ephemeral idea than 4 walls though. I see it as a collection of all the faith of all the believers everywhere. People who go worship as 'sons of god', who 'live with god' everyday no matter where they are, ect. They are all connecting this as the earthly representation of where they go to dwell with god or where he himself is always to be found.
You know, when you start to look at what makes a threshold stronger, it comes down to those things TWG champions, especially love. That's one reason I've never found it a big stretch Mouse could use either. Either contains a threshold, The temple was just an augmented by angelic power dwelling there one. That's the only quantifiable difference. In which case it's as you say, and the fact TWG or any other associates live there effects the very nature of what's absorbed from them to the threshold, amount of transfer, ect.
*and anyone who wants to claim this isn't about DF religious activities, for shame to you :@

[Quantus]

House of god is a bit more an ephemeral idea than 4 walls though. I see it as a collection of all the faith of all the believers everywhere. People who go worship as 'sons of god', who 'live with god' everyday no matter where they are, ect. They are all connecting this as the earthly representation of where they go to dwell with god or where he himself is always to be found.
You know, when you start to look at what makes a threshold stronger, it comes down to those things TWG champions, especially love. That's one reason I've never found it a big stretch Mouse could use either. Either contains a threshold, The temple was just an augmented by angelic power dwelling there one. That's the only quantifiable difference. In which case it's as you say, and the fact TWG or any other associates live there effects the very nature of what's absorbed from them to the threshold, amount of transfer, ect.
*and anyone who wants to claim this isn't about DF religious activities, for shame to you :@

I dunno, I still see the Family threashold requirement for actual extended Presence being qualitatively different than a Church being protected by association to a religion.  Not saying it's not present, but it feels like a separate mechanism.  It feels more closely related Sanctification (my choice of term today, not actually mentioned anywhere); to how a Priest can make Holy Water, or declare a space to be Holy Ground (which I assume is significant to ghosts at least). 


Separately though, I dont actually recall any indication that a Church has /any/ particular warding/defensive Power beyond that provided by Holy Water or a cross or other religious/Faith objects.  Can you point me to an example?

[jonas]

Not sure precisely what your looking for there, any non religious/faith based effects?

...Ok, well. The Nightmare? He couldn't enter into the church but Harry the ghost(was Stuart with him? I don't recall) Unless you'd wanna say the nightmare couldn't enter because he believed it himself that's a clear case of it enacting purely threshold mechanics. He had no invite, he could enter because he had no ill will towards it's inhabitants. Same as Fairy house cleaners vs ugly toad demons.

[Zaphodess]

...Ok, well. The Nightmare? He couldn't enter into the church but Harry the ghost(was Stuart with him? I don't recall) Unless you'd wanna say the nightmare couldn't enter because he believed it himself that's a clear case of it enacting purely threshold mechanics. He had no invite, he could enter because he had no ill will towards it's inhabitants. Same as Fairy house cleaners vs ugly toad demons.

That "ghost" Harry could enter the church was one of the clues that tipped him off to the fact that he was more than just a ghost.

[Quantus]

Not sure precisely what your looking for there, any non religious/faith based effects?

...Ok, well. The Nightmare? He couldn't enter into the church but Harry the ghost(was Stuart with him? I don't recall) Unless you'd wanna say the nightmare couldn't enter because he believed it himself that's a clear case of it enacting purely threshold mechanics. He had no invite, he could enter because he had no ill will towards it's inhabitants. Same as Fairy house cleaners vs ugly toad demons.

I guess my stance boils down to the idea that there is a defensive effect from being on Consecrated Ground, which is distinct from a Threshold. St. Mary's has Both, because it is a Church with actual residents; they overlap but are distinct in area and function.  The Nightmare was able to physically manifest and damage stuff on the Holy Ground (which surprised Harry) but could not pass the actual door/walls of the threshold.  But if St Mary's had nobody actually, currently living there it would not have had that second defensive line. 


The rest of what you mention has more to do with the quantitative differences in the examples, as NO defense is absolute, a powerful enough being can always hammer through anything be it Threshold, Ward, or whathaveyou

[jonas]

That "ghost" Harry could enter the church was one of the clues that tipped him off to the fact that he was more than just a ghost.

Considering how the Nightmares Balliwick worked out compared to the usual ghost. His own admission he wasn't quite sure what he was and the fact he used a foreign BCV spellwork to do it all. I'm quite convinced he was more than just a ghost at the time. Considering the BC keeps trying to bring in a fearbringer/eater I find it unlikely indeed he was ever your average haunting.

[Rasins]

Not sure precisely what your looking for there, any non religious/faith based effects?

...Ok, well. The Nightmare? He couldn't enter into the church but Harry the ghost(was Stuart with him? I don't recall) Unless you'd wanna say the nightmare couldn't enter because he believed it himself that's a clear case of it enacting purely threshold mechanics. He had no invite, he could enter because he had no ill will towards it's inhabitants. Same as Fairy house cleaners vs ugly toad demons.

Could also have to do with intent.  Like a threshold to fae, if they don't intend harm they can cross the threshold.  So maybe the nightmare couldn't cross into the church because it intended harm.  Ghost Harry could because he did not intend harm. 

Also, he had an Archangel with him.

[jonas]

Could also have to do with intent.  Like a threshold to fae, if they don't intend harm they can cross the threshold.  So maybe the nightmare couldn't cross into the church because it intended harm.  Ghost Harry could because he did not intend harm. 

Also, he had an Archangel with him.

That's my point though, it was strictly speaking a pure threshold effect applied to a church. An yea, Q pointed out people live in that church, but I point out, it being a church has no deteriorating effect on said threshold. If anything it takes concrete and adds rebar