WK Mantle or Lawbreaker taint?

[Mr. Death]

Technically the curse did not kill the Demi rcv, it restored their humanity. It is not his fault their natural mortality turned them to dust.

That's a lot like saying, 'The spell didn't kill him. It just tripped him. It's not his fault there was a ledge right there that they fell off." ANd we know that scenario is a law violation.

Harry Id and the mantle is all about survival, while black magic useful, he knows it leads to insanity, which is not great for continual survival. If he can focus enough on this, he can hold the temptation to use it at bay.

It's not about survival. It's about primal urges. Raping Molly and smashing Murphy's head in wouldn't have helped him survive either, but he was a hair's breadth from doing those because of the Mantle.

[Mira]

That's a lot like saying, 'The spell didn't kill him. It just tripped him. It's not his fault there was a ledge right there that they fell off." ANd we know that scenario is a law violation.

Harry didn't infect those people, the Red Court Vamps did..  All Harry was trying to do was save his daughter, which in turn given the nature of the spell that the Red King cast, that Harry merely reversed, saved his own life.. Technically it was all self defense which is allowed under the Laws.  The Red King didn't think the consequences of his spell through, he never thought it possible that it could be reversed.. So no, no law violation..

It's not about survival. It's about primal urges. Raping Molly and smashing Murphy's head in wouldn't have helped him survive either, but he was a hair's breadth from doing those because of the Mantle..

But the point is, he didn't act on his urges..  The mantle is about survival, it makes Harry stronger, faster, etc, but it comes with a price, urges on steroids.   

[Argonometra]

Harry doesn't have murderous tendencies..

No, there was that SG scene in the car where he was tempted to go out and kill some 'threat to his territory' or whatever.

[Avernite]

Technically it was all self defense which is allowed under the Laws. 

I think Hannah Ascher would have liked that, if it were true.

But so far as I know, it's not.

That said - Harry didn't use magic to kill the red court, he used a knife. Ergo, he should be safe from the black magic taint (but not at all from the general mental degradation associated with having to kill a loved one, which may have made him callous about the death of others such as the hunter in Cold Days).

[Mira]

I think Hannah Ascher would have liked that, if it were true.

But so far as I know, it's not.

That said - Harry didn't use magic to kill the red court, he used a knife. Ergo, he should be safe from the black magic taint (but not at all from the general mental degradation associated with having to kill a loved one, which may have made him callous about the death of others such as the hunter in Cold Days).

  Point is still he did not set up the spell that killed the Red Court, the Red King did..  A spell he used to attempt to take out Eb and his whole family.

Self defense, is still a defense, it was the defense that saved Harry.  The Senior Council didn't believe that so young a kid
could fight a full wizard, a retired Warden no less, in a fair fight and beat him..  Granted Harry had Ed defending him and most likely would have lost his head without him.  It is also the reason that Harry was declared a full wizard at sixteen, but because he was under age was sent to live with Eb under the Doom. Oh they also wanted Eb to take him out if need be.

The defense may have worked for Hannah Asher as well if she had an advocate,  but she didn't.  Also the Senior Council's courts by that time had turned more or less into a kangaroo court as we saw in Proven Guilty.

No, there was that SG scene in the car where he was tempted to go out and kill some 'threat to his territory' or whatever.

Again, that he is defending isn't he?  Misguided perhaps, but that isn't a tendency...   

[forumghost]

I think Hannah Ascher would have liked that, if it were true.

But so far as I know, it's not

It's not technically 'allowed' but it's a mitigating factor, which is why Harry is still NBA tall. If Hannah had gone in with the Wardens and plead her case she could have had a suspended sentence like Harry did.

Unfortunately without someone on the Council willing to stick their neck out the chance is about .000000001% of it actually happening, but that's just because the Council are a bunch of asshats that actively discourage any attempts to reform Warlocks- even ones like Harry or Molly that were found early enough they might be salvageable.

[Mira]

It's not technically 'allowed' but it's a mitigating factor, which is why Harry is still NBA tall. If Hannah had gone in with the Wardens and plead her case she could have had a suspended sentence like Harry did.

Unfortunately without someone on the Council willing to stick their neck out the chance is about .000000001% of it actually happening, but that's just because the Council are a bunch of asshats that actively discourage any attempts to reform Warlocks- even ones like Harry or Molly that were found early enough they might be salvageable.

Yeah, Hannah Asher had reason for her initial killing, being raped for heaven sake, but she didn't surrender to the Wardens at that time. If she had a good advocate she might have survived under the Doom.  Though as stated these days wizards like Harry who'd take up her cause are few and far between.  Actually Harry might have gotten the chop if his grandpa hadn't stepped in, and would Harry have stuck his neck out for Molly if she wasn't Michael's kid?  So it is understandable that Hannah ran from the Wardens, but at the same time was she ever able to check her slide into warlockhood?  It isn't totally clear whether or not at the time of Changes when her friends died when their vamp halves died that she wasn't already a warlock.  She was angry enough that Lasciel was able to tempt her so she could gain revenge.

[Avernite]

Yeah, Hannah Asher had reason for her initial killing, being raped for heaven sake, but she didn't surrender to the Wardens at that time. If she had a good advocate she might have survived under the Doom.  Though as stated these days wizards like Harry who'd take up her cause are few and far between.  Actually Harry might have gotten the chop if his grandpa hadn't stepped in, and would Harry have stuck his neck out for Molly if she wasn't Michael's kid?  So it is understandable that Hannah ran from the Wardens, but at the same time was she ever able to check her slide into warlockhood?  It isn't totally clear whether or not at the time of Changes when her friends died when their vamp halves died that she wasn't already a warlock.  She was angry enough that Lasciel was able to tempt her so she could gain revenge.

Well, we know the Fellowship was pretty extremist but sane, so I think Hannah must have stuck to mostly sane while there; and Binder, while on the risky side, seems unlikely to throw in with a gibbering madwoman.

So I suspect she controlled her darker impulses pretty well, and if she'd won a reprieve from the Council she'd probably have reformed.

[Mira]

Well, we know the Fellowship was pretty extremist but sane, so I think Hannah must have stuck to mostly sane while there; and Binder, while on the risky side, seems unlikely to throw in with a gibbering madwoman.

So I suspect she controlled her darker impulses pretty well, and if she'd won a reprieve from the Council she'd probably have reformed.

Think so, but sadly she didn't even try, and without an advocate, she could very well have lost given Langtry's attitude towards young budding warlocks.

[Rasins]

If you violate the first law, even in self defense, you still have the taint.  This is evidenced by the kid in SF who could see the taint of HWWB on Harry. 

Just because the Council recognizes mitigating circumstances, does not mean that the universe will give you a pass.

That being said, Half-Ramps are not human.  The fact that Harry "Pulled the trigger" would not have shielded him from the effects had he killed humans.  But they were no longer humans at that point.  What happened to them after the spell had it's way is of no consequence to the spell caster (which Harry was.)  With that Curse, Harry killed Rampires, and Half Rampires.  The effects of the spell destroyed the "Rampire taint" if you will. 

Killing non-mortals is not against the first law, and Harry has no additional "taint" on him.

That being said, killing a living being, or beings in this case, DOES have an affect. 

It's like when I was in college.  Those 8:00 am classes were EARLY in the day.  I knew that when I signed up for them.  I also knew that the first time I missed a class, it was SO much easier to skip a second and a third and a fourth that eventually I might as well just drop the class.

It's the same way with other things, like killing.  It gets easier the more you do it.  Or it'll drive you nuts.

I believe that the Black Magic taint is separate completely from the WK Mantle.

That being said, feelings are feelings.  Whether they come from the WK Mantle, or from an easing of the ability (to kill in this case) doesn't really matter.  You have that feeling. 

Could the urges that the WK mantle provides be goaded on by Black magic taint?  I see no reasons why not.  But What it think is more likely is that the WK mantle says Kill, and Harry is more likely to do it because he already  has killed, not because a taint is making him do it.

[Snark Knight]

If you violate the first law, even in self defense, you still have the taint.  This is evidenced by the kid in SF who could see the taint of HWWB on Harry.

That mark on Harry was a scar from contact with the Walker while it was pursuing him, not the later action of killing Justin in combat. Though given the flashback in GS, the Walker seemed to want to set him on a path to go after Justin, so it's a fine distinction.

Yeah, Hannah Asher had reason for her initial killing, being raped for heaven sake, but she didn't surrender to the Wardens at that time. If she had a good advocate she might have survived under the Doom.  ...  So it is understandable that Hannah ran from the Wardens, but at the same time was she ever able to check her slide into warlockhood?  It isn't totally clear whether or not at the time of Changes when her friends died when their vamp halves died that she wasn't already a warlock.

She was a warlock for killing the Wardens who tried to arrest her, at least. But there seems to be variation in how high-functioning warlocks can be. The paradigm is that rationalizing that it's right to do an act of dark magic warps the caster so they're more likely to do the same thing again, right? So someone like Hannah (or Harry himself) who kills in self-defense is changed by that experience, but I think it's specific to responding to future threats with wrath, rather than a general temptation to burn everybody for shits 'n giggles. Harry even recognizes that tendency in himself - among other mentions, one of the significant realizations in Ghost Story is that he's tended to embrace anger when threatened as an alternative to fear, and he can't really do that when he's watching his friends in physical danger but can't intervene himself. He just doesn't connect those temper issues to his initial experience with killing Justin, but I think that's where they originated.

It's a qualitatively different personality change from someone who kills for personal gain, or in anger that's not connected to a direct threat to their own safety (e.g. the young Korean warlock Langtry used as an example). The option of leniency in self defense cases probably exists because there's more of a chance of rehabilitation for those who have become wrathful when genuinely threatened than there is for those who have changed to believe in using their magic to initiate aggression. I don't think it was an accident that Ebenezar kept Harry largely isolated to a safe environment on his farm (aside from the one encounter with teenage bullies in town, where Harry remembers just staring them down because he knew they weren't a real threat - in hindsight, I suspect Eb was treating that as a test).

[Rasins]

That mark on Harry was a scar from contact with the Walker while it was pursuing him, not the later action of killing Justin in combat. Though given the flashback in GS, the Walker seemed to want to set him on a path to go after Justin, so it's a fine distinction.

Haven't others commented on the Dark Magic mark on Harry.  Didn't the spirit that Harry talked to, the on that needed a Body and Harry gave her a cabbage patch doll, say he had dark magic on his spirit?

[Shift8]

I think the issue here is clearly the WK mantle.

I am personally of the opinion based on WOJ and the narrative so far that the 1st law taint is either complete nonsense or a half truth.

The black staff in particular raises alot of questions regarding the true nature or validity of the 1st law.

I have already mentioned in an another thread how I think the users belief in the magic they create doesnt make a huge amount of logical sense with regards to how killing with magic would somehow taint the user. I wont repost that here, but Ill add something else I thought of.

People who use magic to kill are supposed to be tainted because they believed in the effects of their magic. This is also the explanation for why someone like Molly has totally different talents than Dresden. Etc. Etc. The problem here being that I dont need to "will" a death or believe in it to make it happen. The only time this would presumably happen is if I used some kind of death curse specifically. That is, a spell that kills a specific person and only that. But just like how Wardens use of magic swords and other indirect magic are not considered law violations, I cannot see how any non-death specific magic would be.

If I push you off a cliff with a gust of wind, I dont need to believe in or will your death. I just need to believe in wind. Same with a fireball etc. Especially since it might not kill you. Just like how a bullet will not necessarily kill you.

[kazimmoinuddin]

The ritual was aimed at killing him, all he just did was redirect it at his enemy. Destroying their power of his inhuman enemy. Classic white council doctrine. The thing is those rcv were sustaining mortals, so when removed, they aged die.

[LordDresden2]

That's a lot like saying, 'The spell didn't kill him. It just tripped him. It's not his fault there was a ledge right there that they fell off."

The Council might actually let you get by with that, depending on the exact situation and who did it.

Remember, when they took down Kemmler, the Council used magic to make him helpless and then whacked him with mundane weapons like swords, nooses, fire, etc.  It all depends.