Nemesis, Collaboration, and Sarissa...

[LordDresden2]

I think you are underestimating how much Sarissa is part of the conspiracy to kill Maeve and make Sarissa the Winter Lady.  The whole book is written essentially under one context and Harry (and us) take that to be the truth.  But go back to events and remember that she is Mab's daughter.

Let's roll it back to the very start of the book.  Sarissa never says, "Mom" to Mab.  When she talks about her relationship with Mab, she doesn't outright lie but does not tell the truth.  Then she shows up at Molly's place.  I want to remind you at this point in the book Harry thinks she is a young, Mortal woman.  Under 30, maybe under 25.  The Redcap would know that she is Mab's daughter.  He likely pre-dates Mab.  So, do you think he is really going to KILL Mab's daughter?  How would that go for him?  More likely she let her self be captured by him and sent to Harry.  I suspect all her hiding is not her fear of Harry, but instead fear that he will recognize her as Maeve's twin.  The next event is the "team" crossing the circle at the top of the island.  There is no way to force her into the circle and make her stay.  She went into the circle willingly.  The plan was to have Maeve killed and pop the Winter Lady's Mantle into Sarissa.  Mab knew it AND so did Sarissa.  Look at her argument with Maeve.  She clearly knew that Maeve was nFected.  She compared Maeve to Lea and how Mab could cure Maeve. 

We tend to assume that the people working against Harry and the good guys are Nemesis-infected or Nemesis-influenced, and obviously some of them, like Maeve, are so.  But it's not clear that Aurora, for example, was suffering from exactly the same thing Maeve was.  There was no indication that Aurora could actually lie by commission, for ex.

Likewise, there are people working for the other side who almost surely are doing so of their own free wills (or as close as the supernaturals have in some cases).  They may or may not be allies, but they probably do work together sometimes (and maybe against each other at other times).  I strongly doubt Cowl is Nemfected, for ex.

Regarding Sarissa, see nambkas' comments above.  Sarissa looks to be far more than what Harrry took her to be in Cold Days.  But just as a speculation, suppose Sarissa is actually Circle, or working for/with them (presumably even unknown to her mother).

That might seem improbable, but it might also explain a few things.  For ex, Maeve hated being Winter Lady, apparently.  She apparently also hated Sarissa, though that may have been jealousy over her relationship with Mab, and/or her personal freedom.

But how did Maeve end up as Winter Lady in the first place?  Why Maeve and not Sarissa?  From Mab's POV, Sarissa looks like the better candidate.  More self-disciplined, more serious.  I would think that Mab would have preferred Sarissa to be the Winter Lady.  Yet somehow Maeve ended up with that 'honor'.

But if Sarissa was with the bad guys, even back then, of her own free will, it might make sense to let Maeve have the title and the power, since that way Sarissa retains her freedom of action and her semi-immortality.  She can always become Winter Lady later, if need be something can be arranged to happen to Maeve...

If Maeve was somehow forced into taking the Winter Lady status, that might also have contributed to her hated for her sister.

Just speculating...

[Mira]

If Maeve was somehow forced into taking the Winter Lady status, that might also have contributed to her hated for her sister.

  I need to go back and reread, but that was the impression I got, whether true or not, Maeve felt Mab favored Sarissa.  Thus she Maeve was forced to live the cold life of the Winter Lady, while Sarissa went off to do as she pleased.. What was worse, Mab would go off and do mother/daughter things with Sarissa, but not her.. 

[LordDresden2]

  I need to go back and reread, but that was the impression I got, whether true or not, Maeve felt Mab favored Sarissa.  Thus she Maeve was forced to live the cold life of the Winter Lady, while Sarissa went off to do as she pleased.. What was worse, Mab would go off and do mother/daughter things with Sarissa, but not her..

But we don't know how that came about.  My point is that we can already be reasonably sure Sarissa is good at being at least passively deceptive, because the image of herself she presented to Harry in Cold Days was highly misleading (see nambkas' quote above).  I'm simply wondering if that might extend to being one of the bad guys.  If that were the case, Maeve's problem might even have been set up in the way of a distraction to keep their mom occupied.

I would be interested to see if there was ever much interaction in the past between Sarissa and Aurora.

[Gman]

I view things differently. I think that Sarissa was not infected with Nemesis. She was either following Mab's orders not to tell Harry she is Mab's daughter or she wanted Harry to see her for herself and not Mab's daughter.The Fae or those related to the Fae don't like giving out info for free. Mab also did not tell Harry who Sarissa really was. The Red Cap I think was Nemesis infected or at least loyal to Maeve rather than Mab. I think he thought Maeve was going to replace/kill Mab eventually so he is being loyal to the new boss. I think Nemesis can sort of lie mostly dormant in the host and do some subtle influencing without the host being really aware like what happened to Aurora. Nemesis can when necessary take over and make the host a sort of puppet. The host being possessed and can fight Nemesis but would likely loose. Remember what happened to Cat Sith and the Leasidhe. Cat Sith fought and lost to Nemesis and the Leasidhe fought and got Mab's help to defeat it or at least contain it.

[Zaphodess]

Look at Sarissa's own words on why she is in Mab's debt:

"I ... have a form of congenital dementia," she said. "I watched what it did to my older sister and ..." She shuddered. "Doctors can't help me.
 Mab can.

Assuming she's not lying, just masking the truth in Fae-fashion, she can hardly talk about Nemesis. As far as we know, Nemesis is not congenital and neither can it be dormant for about 200 years. What she has inherited is her sidhe-half, being a changeling. She talks about it as a form of dementia. That doesn't sound like she wanted it. But neither has she chosen to become human. My theory is that Mab didn't let her. She's certainly capable of manipulating her own daughter into a deal that forced her to play along.

[Mira]

Look at Sarissa's own words on why she is in Mab's debt:

Assuming she's not lying, just masking the truth in Fae-fashion, she can hardly talk about Nemesis. As far as we know, Nemesis is not congenital and neither can it be dormant for about 200 years. What she has inherited is her sidhe-half, being a changeling. She talks about it as a form of dementia. That doesn't sound like she wanted it. But neither has she chosen to become human. My theory is that Mab didn't let her. She's certainly capable of manipulating her own daughter into a deal that forced her to play along.

 I think that Mab should have told Harry the full truth about the Enemy for starters.  But that is for another topic. 

We know that the mantle will travel to the most suitable host when something happens to the host for lack of a better word, it resides in.  Mab may not have prepared either of her daughters as well as she might have, something happened to the Lady and poor Maeve was the nearest suitable candidate and got stuck with it.  For the first hundred or so years she was fine with it, did her job, but there might have been aspects of it she didn't understand or know.  Not unlike Molly didn't know, the bit about boyfriends and sex being forbidden...  That would create resentment, especially when she observed her sister enjoying herself.  I can see that  resentment then turn into rebellion on Maeve's part making her vulnerable to becoming infected..   I think there is evidence to underscore this, look at Maeve's court in Summer Knight.. She wasn't infected at that time, but she was  very twisted  emotionally and her court reflected that.

[Snark Knight]

I find it pretty hard to fathom the relationship between Mab and Sarissa. On the one hand, Mab was supposedly close enough with her that Maeve was jealous. On the other hand, she dangled Sarissa like bait to see whether Harry would rape her under the mantle's influence - Sarissa was evidently concerned about being abused, and didn't seem to think mentioning the familial relationship would protect her.

With that kind of split behaviour from Mab, it's hard to figure out whether she was ever in any real danger from the Redcap or not (even before getting into that he expected her to be overthrown shortly be Maeve anyway).

[Mira]

I find it pretty hard to fathom the relationship between Mab and Sarissa. On the one hand, Mab was supposedly close enough with her that Maeve was jealous. On the other hand, she dangled Sarissa like bait to see whether Harry would rape her under the mantle's influence - Sarissa was evidently concerned about being abused, and didn't seem to think mentioning the familial relationship would protect her.

With that kind of split behaviour from Mab, it's hard to figure out whether she was ever in any real danger from the Redcap or not (even before getting into that he expected her to be overthrown shortly be Maeve anyway).

I don't think Mab was ever all together honest with any of her Ladies..   She took care to prepare Molly but omitted what she was preparing her for, and certainly didn't say a word about forced virginity...  I doubt she mentioned that to her daughters either...  I think that might be a reason why she was hoping for Sarissa to replace Maeve, she had seen what had happened and had an understanding at least of what being Lady meant.

[LordDresden2]

I view things differently. I think that Sarissa was not infected with Nemesis.

I agree completely.  My speculation is that she might be one of the bad guys on her own, rather than because of Nemesis.  Part of the Circle, or something on that order.

She was either following Mab's orders not to tell Harry she is Mab's daughter or she wanted Harry to see her for herself and not Mab's daughter.The Fae or those related to the Fae don't like giving out info for free. Mab also did not tell Harry who Sarissa really was. The Red Cap I think was Nemesis infected or at least loyal to Maeve rather than Mab. I think he thought Maeve was going to replace/kill Mab eventually so he is being loyal to the new boss. I think Nemesis can sort of lie mostly dormant in the host and do some subtle influencing without the host being really aware like what happened to Aurora. Nemesis can when necessary take over and make the host a sort of puppet. The host being possessed and can fight Nemesis but would likely loose. Remember what happened to Cat Sith and the Leasidhe. Cat Sith fought and lost to Nemesis and the Leasidhe fought and got Mab's help to defeat it or at least contain it.

Yeah, but it's pretty clear that Sarissa is not what she presented herself to Harry as, whatever else she might be.  Part of my point is that it's easy to see Nemesis everywhere, when in fact it's likely that most of Harry's hidden foes are not Nemfected, though they may be working with it.

[LordDresden2]

I find it pretty hard to fathom the relationship between Mab and Sarissa. On the one hand, Mab was supposedly close enough with her that Maeve was jealous. On the other hand, she dangled Sarissa like bait to see whether Harry would rape her under the mantle's influence - Sarissa was evidently concerned about being abused, and didn't seem to think mentioning the familial relationship would protect her.

With that kind of split behaviour from Mab, it's hard to figure out whether she was ever in any real danger from the Redcap or not (even before getting into that he expected her to be overthrown shortly be Maeve anyway).

If the Redcap was sane, in what passes for the 'right mind' of a Winter Fae, it's hard for me to picture her being in much danger.  As nambkas noted above, unless the Redcap is freaking insane, it's going to be reluctant to harm Mab's daughter.

Now, I suppose there's an outside chance that the Redcap didn't know about the blood connection, but that strikes me as improbable.

[Mira]

Yeah, but it's pretty clear that Sarissa is not what she presented herself to Harry as, whatever else she might be.  Part of my point is that it's easy to see Nemesis everywhere, when in fact it's likely that most of Harry's hidden foes are not Nemfected, though they may be working with it.

I agree, we tend to see Nemesis under every rock, but I doubt that it is..  I also think the Enemy is a lot more complicated.  I think part of Mab's success and some of her potential failure is she is playing a ten dimensional chess game and doesn't trust anyone enough to help her with any of it and suspects everyone of trying to undercut her..  She isn't far wrong, yet it could be her downfall.

[LordDresden2]

I agree, we tend to see Nemesis under every rock, but I doubt that it is.

Exactly.  It's obviously an important piece of the puzzle, but I don't for a moment believe that Nemesis is the only important piece.  I doubt if it's necessarily even the mastermind behind the overall situation (if there is just one such mind).  If Harry and Eb are right, and the Black Council is a group, it's quite possible that there are multiple plots in motion on the other side, which sometimes work together and sometimes trip each other up.

IMHO, there are several puzzle-pieces that are probably comparably important, including but not limited to:

Nemesis
Kemmler
Cowl
The Circle (to the degree that is different than Cowl)\
Sarissa
Merlin (the original)
Margaret
The Athame
The Blackstaff (the staff itself, I mean) and how the Council ended up in possession of it

[Mira]

Exactly.  It's obviously an important piece of the puzzle, but I don't for a moment believe that Nemesis is the only important piece.  I doubt if it's necessarily even the mastermind behind the overall situation (if there is just one such mind).  If Harry and Eb are right, and the Black Council is a group, it's quite possible that there are multiple plots in motion on the other side, which sometimes work together and sometimes trip each other up.

IMHO, there are several puzzle-pieces that are probably comparably important, including but not limited to:

Nemesis
Kemmler
Cowl
The Circle (to the degree that is different than Cowl)\
Sarissa
Merlin (the original)
Margaret
The Athame
The Blackstaff (the staff itself, I mean) and how the Council ended up in possession of it

I think it is even more complicated, because I don't think it is all that clear who or what is on each side.  In my opinion I think you have to add a layer of gray areas or what Harry likes to call "cat's paws."  Take the Red Court Vamps, yeah bad actors but were they any worse than the White Court Vamps or the Jade Court Vamps?  Granted, we no nothing so far about the last.  What finally brought about the downfall of the Red Court, wasn't so much that they were evil, but that they were being used by the Enemy towards a goal..  Now one could argue that they miscalculated,  Bianca's actions triggers a series of events which led to a premature war against the White Council, etc, etc, which finally led to Harry's reverse family curse that wiped out the Reds..  But was it a miscalculation?  The Fomor have now stepped in to fill the vacuum left by the Red Court, in some ways they seem to be more powerful and much more clever than the Red Court ever was..  So what if the down fall of the Red Court was no more than a "sacrifice fly" for the Enemy designed to advance the on base runners, even scoring a run..

[LordDresden2]

I think it is even more complicated, because I don't think it is all that clear who or what is on each side.  In my opinion I think you have to add a layer of gray areas or what Harry likes to call "cat's paws."  Take the Red Court Vamps, yeah bad actors but were they any worse than the White Court Vamps or the Jade Court Vamps?

It depends on your metric.  It's kind of like asking whether Marcone is better or worse than his less competent predecessors in the criminal world.  If you measure by the level of direct violence, especially against kids and vulnerable people, he's better.  OTOH, he makes crime pay well, and the drugs and vice and other trouble he traffics in makes life in general worse, from that POV he's worse than his predecessors because he's more efficient.  If you're a street cop you're less likely to lose a fellow officer to violence with Marcone running stuff.  If you're a drug enforcement man, it's far worse and you're more overloaded than before.

The vampires are like that.  The White Court is easier to battle than the Red.  The Reds are more physically and immediately dangerous, and they can convert you into one of them.  The Reds can reproduce far faster, one Red can become hundreds quickly.  WCVs need just as long as we do to increase their numbers, and are relatively much easier to kill.  Lara in a nasty mood might tear through a SWAT team, but she won't make them into WCVs, and if they keep their head they may take her down.

The Black Court is worse on every metric, except that their weaknesses are so well known.

What finally brought about the downfall of the Red Court, wasn't so much that they were evil, but that they were being used by the Enemy towards a goal..  Now one could argue that they miscalculated,  Bianca's actions triggers a series of events which led to a premature war against the White Council, etc, etc, which finally led to Harry's reverse family curse that wiped out the Reds..

It wasn't Bianca's actions.  She was a pawn on the board, even for her own people.  Bianca wasn't the sharpest tool in the box.

 But was it a miscalculation?  The Fomor have now stepped in to fill the vacuum left by the Red Court, in some ways they seem to be more powerful and much more clever than the Red Court ever was..

Now that is a very good question, actually.  I don't down that Somebody was using the Red Court as a pawn on the board.  Some of them might even have realized it, but I think the Red King was so caught up in his own wonderfulness that he never suspected.  I'm not at all sure who that Someone was, though.

I'm also not sure that things worked out just exactly as that Somebody intended.  Whoever it was may have intended to destroy the Court.  But the chain of events that led to Changes is so contingent that it's hard to imagine it being planned out in detail.  It requires Maggie, who stems from that ill-advised sexual indulgence back in Death Masks.  But that requires Harry's unbreakable shield, the magic rope, them being trapped there under those circumstances, etc.  There are about 194,348 ways that situation could have played out differently:  no Maggie.

I simply don't believe that every detail of everything that's happening is planned out years ahead of time by the villain.  Not even Mab can do that.  Instead, I think the villain(s) are really really good at improvising as they go along, they have a plan, yes, and they have a lot of foresight and contingencies worked out, but they still have to wait and see like everybody else.  There are just too many ways things could go sour for it all to be One Big Plan.

For ex, imagine if back in Summer Knight, when he escaped Aurora's quicksand trap, instead of ending in the tree, Harry had slammed head-first into the trunk...and was instantly killed.  It could easily have worked out that way.

Suppose on Demonreach, Karrin's bullet simply blasted through Maeve's body non-lethally, leaving her wounded and helpless but alive.  The whole subsequent sequence of events changes.  Or suppose Karrin's gun jammed.  Etc.

The enemy is powerful, knowledgeable, and obviously superhuman in some ways.  They have access to broad sources of information, but I don't believe that they can plan every detail ahead of time.

So what if the down fall of the Red Court was no more than a "sacrifice fly" for the Enemy designed to advance the on base runners, even scoring a run..

I think it may have been more or less that.  Whether they planned the Fomor, or just figured that the vacuum would be filled by 'someone' and they'd play it as it lay is a good question.

[Gman]

It depends on your metric.  It's kind of like asking whether Marcone is better or worse than his less competent predecessors in the criminal world.  If you measure by the level of direct violence, especially against kids and vulnerable people, he's better.  OTOH, he makes crime pay well, and the drugs and vice and other trouble he traffics in makes life in general worse, from that POV he's worse than his predecessors because he's more efficient.  If you're a street cop you're less likely to lose a fellow officer to violence with Marcone running stuff.  If you're a drug enforcement man, it's far worse and you're more overloaded than before.

The vampires are like that.  The White Court is easier to battle than the Red.  The Reds are more physically and immediately dangerous, and they can convert you into one of them.  The Reds can reproduce far faster, one Red can become hundreds quickly.  WCVs need just as long as we do to increase their numbers, and are relatively much easier to kill.  Lara in a nasty mood might tear through a SWAT team, but she won't make them into WCVs, and if they keep their head they may take her down.

The Black Court is worse on every metric, except that their weaknesses are so well known.

It wasn't Bianca's actions.  She was a pawn on the board, even for her own people.  Bianca wasn't the sharpest tool in the box.

Now that is a very good question, actually.  I don't down that Somebody was using the Red Court as a pawn on the board.  Some of them might even have realized it, but I think the Red King was so caught up in his own wonderfulness that he never suspected.  I'm not at all sure who that Someone was, though.

I'm also not sure that things worked out just exactly as that Somebody intended.  Whoever it was may have intended to destroy the Court.  But the chain of events that led to Changes is so contingent that it's hard to imagine it being planned out in detail.  It requires Maggie, who stems from that ill-advised sexual indulgence back in Death Masks.  But that requires Harry's unbreakable shield, the magic rope, them being trapped there under those circumstances, etc.  There are about 194,348 ways that situation could have played out differently:  no Maggie.

I simply don't believe that every detail of everything that's happening is planned out years ahead of time by the villain.  Not even Mab can do that.  Instead, I think the villain(s) are really really good at improvising as they go along, they have a plan, yes, and they have a lot of foresight and contingencies worked out, but they still have to wait and see like everybody else.  There are just too many ways things could go sour for it all to be One Big Plan.

For ex, imagine if back in Summer Knight, when he escaped Aurora's quicksand trap, instead of ending in the tree, Harry had slammed head-first into the trunk...and was instantly killed.  It could easily have worked out that way.

Suppose on Demonreach, Karrin's bullet simply blasted through Maeve's body non-lethally, leaving her wounded and helpless but alive.  The whole subsequent sequence of events changes.  Or suppose Karrin's gun jammed.  Etc.

The enemy is powerful, knowledgeable, and obviously superhuman in some ways.  They have access to broad sources of information, but I don't believe that they can plan every detail ahead of time.

I think it may have been more or less that.  Whether they planned the Fomor, or just figured that the vacuum would be filled by 'someone' and they'd play it as it lay is a good question.

I think the enemy has been consistent. They are getting major factions to fight each other to weaken everyone to let the Outsiders come in and win. They tried to get the WC Vamps and the White Council to fight each other and framed Morgan. I doubt the enemy cared so much if the RC or the WC won, just so long as they were busy fighting each other and not paying attention to other matters. I don't know if the Formor are just more useful idiots or are true partners to the Outsiders.