The Mothers' Cottage and Earth...

[Quantus]

Where'd I lose you?

Right after the fist sentence?  It sounded like you were saying that you agree with the first WOJ but are rejecting the second, but Im not following your reasons?

[Griffyn612]

Right after the fist sentence?  It sounded like you were saying that you agree with the first WOJ but are rejecting the second, but Im not following your reasons?

I'm conceding both, but the second is under protest.  To have access to the southern seasons at all, they'd seem to require a link to that aspect that isn't explained by his statement.  Their authority is, but their claim to the seasons isn't.

Which is where i believe the link between human belief in the seasons comes into play.  But even then, they don't have the population to offer the same level of power supplied by the northern hemisphere.

[Quantus]

I'm conceding both, but the second is under protest.  To have access to the southern seasons at all, they'd seem to require a link to that aspect that isn't explained by his statement.  Their authority is, but their claim to the seasons isn't.

OK, I think I see where I got lost. I was operating under the (unproven) assumption that the connection to the Seasons was something that came to the Fae Courts along with the Guardianship of the Gates (based on the Fact that the Dragons used to manage that aspect of Nature, and the theory that they are previous Guardians).  Under that framework, it would have been a Single, Global connection that is shared by the two courts, and so there would not be a Second connection necessary (or possible) for the Southern half of the world.  I interpret the 2nd WOJ to be indicating that they have to work harder politically because, at the end of the day, they are Outsiders Foreigners that have been put in charge (like an English Lord being installed in medieval Scotland) and the locals dont really like/appreciate it. 

Which is where i believe the link between human belief in the seasons comes into play.  But even then, they don't have the population to offer the same level of power supplied by the northern hemisphere.

I dont like this.  I think this line of logic leads down the path that in the Southern Hemisphere Nature Itself is weaker than the North because there are fewer Humans, and that doesnt feel right at all. 

[Griffyn612]

OK, I think I see where I got lost. I was operating under the (unproven) assumption that the connection to the Seasons was something that came to the Fae Courts along with the Guardianship of the Gates (based on the Fact that the Dragons used to manage that aspect of Nature, and the theory that they are previous Guardians).  Under that framework, it would have been a Single, Global connection that is shared by the two courts, and so there would not be a Second connection necessary (or possible) for the Southern half of the world.  I interpret the 2nd WOJ to be indicating that they have to work harder politically because, at the end of the day, they are Outsiders Foreigners that have been put in charge (like an English Lord being installed in medieval Scotland) and the locals dont really like/appreciate it.

See, my (unproven) theory is that their association with the seasons is artificially constructed by spells laid into the Table, channeling human belief in the seasons as "faith" power that is then provided equally to the Courts.

I'm not sure that I buy that the Dragons were involved with the Gates, or that they were tied to the seasons.  Were there some WoJ's that suggested as much?

I dont like this.  I think this line of logic leads down the path that in the Southern Hemisphere Nature Itself is weaker than the North because there are fewer Humans, and that doesnt feel right at all.

That's where the difference in our theories becomes significant.  You're theory is based on the idea that there's an unchanging and equal pool of Seasonal Aspect Power accessible to the Courts from either hemisphere. 

What I'm suggesting is that each human unconsciously gives 1 joul of their free will (out of, let's say, 1 kilojoule available to each) to the Aspect of Seasons. 

Instead of ancient humans saying, "Odin controls the sky! If thunder rolls and lighting strikes, Odin must be angry!", and giving a portion of their free will to deities that control their environment, modern humans say, "We can't vacation during that time of year, it's too hot/cold," and give a sliver of their free will to the Courts.

Since there are 7.5 billion humans, and 6.6 billion live in the Northern hemisphere, the North is providing 6.6 megajoules of free will.  By comparison, the Southern hemisphere has 900 million humans, so they only provide 0.9 megajoules. 

That disparate level of "worship" establishes the Northern hemisphere as the "dominant" hemisphere when establishing the active season between the Courts.  But it also allows for each Court to still have their season active somewhere, which allows them to summon the Table and pour power into their side.

[Quantus]

See, my (unproven) theory is that their association with the seasons is artificially constructed by spells laid into the Table, channeling human belief in the seasons as "faith" power that is then provided equally to the Courts.

I'm not sure that I buy that the Dragons were involved with the Gates, or that they were tied to the seasons.  Were there some WoJ's that suggested as much?

On the latter there is, though Ive lost the link and have spent a couple months failing to find it again.  The Question was a straightforward "what sort of things were the Dragons in charge of" (since we were previously told they were cosmic beings in charge of parts of the natural order).  He rattled off a few examples offhand, and I recall being suprised that ones of them was "the orderly turning of the seasons" (I /think/ I have the phrasing correct?). 

Since the seasons seem obviously a Fae responsibility, I took that as further evidence (though certainly not proof) for the theory that the Dragons were a former Guardian. 

That's where the difference in our theories becomes significant.  You're theory is based on the idea that there's an unchanging and equal pool of Seasonal Aspect Power accessible to the Courts from either hemisphere. 

What I'm suggesting is that each human unconsciously gives 1 joul of their free will (out of, let's say, 1 kilojoule available to each) to the Aspect of Seasons. 

Instead of ancient humans saying, "Odin controls the sky! If thunder rolls and lighting strikes, Odin must be angry!", and giving a portion of their free will to deities that control their environment, modern humans say, "We can't vacation during that time of year, it's too hot/cold," and give a sliver of their free will to the Courts.

Since there are 7.5 billion humans, and 6.6 billion live in the Northern hemisphere, the North is providing 6.6 megajoules of free will.  By comparison, the Southern hemisphere has 900 million humans, so they only provide 0.9 megajoules. 

That disparate level of "worship" establishes the Northern hemisphere as the "dominant" hemisphere when establishing the active season between the Courts.  But it also allows for each Court to still have their season active somewhere, which allows them to summon the Table and pour power into their side.

Agreed, that's were we diverge.  Im still not on board with the whole notion that all the deities are fueled so directly by their Believer-counts, or that Nature itself would be less powerful in the Southern Hemisphere simply because there are fewer Humans to be confused by it. 

To the particulars:

I certainly dont think that the Power of the courts are "unchanging", but I do think that at the Global level Summer and Winter need to constantly balance each other (within the variance that their politics emit) because that's the only way a giant spinning /anything/ can be balanced; physics is skewing my understanding of this though wich could be a mistake. 

I will agree that I think each side has a Pool of Power (which Im guessing is called the Wellspring but I could be wrong) that is independent of geography, or else it would mean that the Gate Forces are significantly under-powered for half the year.  Which is crazy-talk :p

I generally agree with your characterization of how worship changed with the popular/scientific understanding of Nature, but the thing I really dont get behind is the assumed Schism of the hemispheres or the idea that the Northern Hemisphere is fundamentally more Important in a metaphysical sense than the Southern simply because it has more humans. 

[groinkick]

Well the Mothers are so tied to the Earth's weather it could be that they are everywhere, and nowhere at the same time.  That their cottage can only be accessed if they allow it, and it can be done from anywhere.

[Griffyn612]

Agreed, that's were we diverge.  Im still not on board <snip> that Nature itself would be less powerful in the Southern Hemisphere simply because there are fewer Humans to be confused by it.
...
I certainly dont think that the Power of the courts are "unchanging", but I do think that at the Global level Summer and Winter need to constantly balance each other (within the variance that their politics emit) because that's the only way a giant spinning /anything/ can be balanced; physics is skewing my understanding of this though wich could be a mistake. 
...
I will agree that I think each side has a Pool of Power (which Im guessing is called the Wellspring but I could be wrong) that is independent of geography, or else it would mean that the Gate Forces are significantly under-powered for half the year.  Which is crazy-talk :p
...
I generally agree with your characterization of how worship changed with the popular/scientific understanding of Nature, but the thing I really dont get behind is the assumed Schism of the hemispheres or the idea that the Northern Hemisphere is fundamentally more Important in a metaphysical sense than the Southern simply because it has more humans.

Regardless of the source (all-nature-aspect or gifted-free-will), the power of the Courts is entirely dependent on the Northern hemisphere.

In Summer Knight, it's flat-out said that Summer is at its strongest on the Summer Solstice (tomorrow!), and gradually weakens until the Winter Solstice.  When it comes to the Guardians of the Gates, their power revolves around the Northern hemisphere.

Now, I see a few arguments as to why that's the case. 

1) The power of the Aspect of the Seasons is stronger in the North than the South (neither of us think this makes sense)
2) The dominant Court is based on the origin hemisphere of the Sidhe (this makes no sense to me)
3) It's determined by human perception of the season, which collectively is dominant in the Northern hemisphere.(this makes sense to me)

The North being dominant to the South doesn't seem to be debatable.  Only the source of the power shift seems up for interpretation.

<snip> Im still not on board with the whole notion that all the deities are fueled so directly by their Believer-counts

I'm fine with deities having multiple sources of power, but I think that human recognition of deities and their purviews is a big factor.  But that's a debate for a different thread.

[Quantus]

Regardless of the source (all-nature-aspect or gifted-free-will), the power of the Courts is entirely dependent on the Northern hemisphere.

In Summer Knight, it's flat-out said that Summer is at its strongest on the Summer Solstice (tomorrow!), and gradually weakens until the Winter Solstice.  When it comes to the Guardians of the Gates, their power revolves around the Northern hemisphere.

Now, I see a few arguments as to why that's the case. 

1) The power of the Aspect of the Seasons is stronger in the North than the South (neither of us think this makes sense)
2) The dominant Court is based on the origin hemisphere of the Sidhe (this makes no sense to me)
3) It's determined by human perception of the season, which collectively is dominant in the Northern hemisphere.(this makes sense to me)

The North being dominant to the South doesn't seem to be debatable.  Only the source of the power shift seems up for interpretation.
I'm fine with deities having multiple sources of power, but I think that human recognition of deities and their purview is a big factor.  But that's a debate for a different thread.

Dude, that's all still based on a fundamental Assumption that the two hemispheres are not balanced in terms of Power, which to my mind falls somewhere between unlikely and impossible. 

[nedserD C B yrraH]

Why? There is, literally, twice as much land area in the northern hemisphere. That could easily lead to Fomor having more power in the southern hemisphere by simply reducing the power available to the Fae.

[Quantus]

Why? There is, literally, twice as much land area in the northern hemisphere. That could easily lead to Fomor having more power in the southern hemisphere by simply reducing the power available to the Fae.

I think we're drifting off into different topics, I was talking about the cumulative Power dichotomy of the Summer/Winter Whole (of which the Wyld are a part), not just the actual Courts that guard their respective territories.

[Griffyn612]

Dude, that's all still based on a fundamental Assumption that the two hemispheres are not balanced in terms of Power, which to my mind falls somewhere between unlikely and impossible.

If the total power available from Aspect of Season is 100 gigajoules, then it would be divided equally between the Courts at all times.  50GJ for Summer, 50GJ for Winter, at any given time of the year.

Except, SK established that there is a dominant Court throughout the year, and that Court's dominance coincides with the season of the Northern hemisphere.

So, either there is an imbalance with the Aspect of Season power (which neither of us thinks is logical), or there's another source of power at play.

That's where human free will given to the Courts comes into it.  The fluctuation in Court power comes from human donations, which are influenced by the population's Seasonal Perception.  If we say each human gives 1 joule of free will, that gives the northern hemisphere 6.6GJ to donate, and the southern hemisphere gives 0.9GJ.

On the Northern Summer Solstice (today!), the Summer Court's power is AoS (50GJ) + Northern Seasonal Perception (6.6GJ) for a total of 56.6GJ.  At the same time, the Winter Court has AoS (50GJ) + Southern Seasonal Perception (0.9GJ) for a total of 50.9GJ.  At this peak, the SC is 5.7GJ stronger than Winter.

The day after the Northern Summer Solstice (tomorrow!), the Northern Seasonal Perception will begin to shift toward the inevitable Winter.  Each day will see 36.16 megajoules shift from the NSP to Winter, just as 4.9MJ shifts from the SSP to Summer.

At the Northern Autumnal Equinox, the NSP will be halfway to winter, even as the SSP is halfway to summer.  The Summer Court's power would be AoS (50GJ) + 1/2 NSP (3.3GJ) + 1/2 SSP (0.45GJ) for a total of 53.75GJ.  Winter would get half of each seasonal perception as well, putting the Courts at balance with 53.75GJ each.

Thus do we get a shifting balance of power between the Courts without either season being dominant.  If 90% of the human population lived in the Southern hemisphere, then it would be the "dominant" seasonal perception.  But since most of the population lives in the North, the Courts are forced to sway to their perceptions of the "dominant" season.

[Quantus]

If the total power available from Aspect of Season is 100 gigajoules, then it would be divided equally between the Courts at all times.  50GJ for Summer, 50GJ for Winter, at any given time of the year.

Except, SK established that there is a dominant Court throughout the year, and that Court's dominance coincides with the season of the Northern hemisphere.

So, either there is an imbalance with the Aspect of Season power (which neither of us thinks is logical), or there's another source of power at play.

This is the burried assumption that I think is taking you off the rails (from my POV).  SK only establishes that The Summer Court is more more powerful during it's Namesake season (peaking at Midsummer) in the Northern Hemisphere. So theoretically Titania's Power Ebs and Flows depending on both When AND Where she is standing.

The total Power of Summer (which is a wildly different thing that the Power of Titania and her Court) would remain constant because while it's at it's Maximin in the North it's at it's Minimim in the South, and vice versa for Winter; Thus Balance.  Neither Season (Total Season mind you, not just the Court) actually goes away, it just trades prominence.

[Griffyn612]

This is the burried assumption that I think is taking you off the rails (from my POV).  SK only establishes that The Summer Court is more more powerful during it's Namesake season (peaking at Midsummer) in the Northern Hemisphere. So theoretically Titania's Power Ebs and Flows depending on both When AND Where she is standing.

The total Power of Summer (which is a wildly different thing that the Power of Titania and her Court) would remain constant because while it's at it's Maximin in the North it's at it's Minimim in the South, and vice versa for Winter; Thus Balance.  Neither Season (Total Season mind you, not just the Court) actually goes away, it just trades prominence.

I don't see any wiggle room, unless you think Aurora is lying.

   “The seasons are changing,” Aurora said. “In two days’ time,
Midsummer will be upon us. The height of Summer’s strength.”
  She said nothing more, letting me do the math. “You think
Winter has taken away your Knight,” I said. “And if you wait,
you’re only going to grow more and more weak, while Winter
gets stronger. Right?”
   “Correct. If we are to have any chance of victory, we must
strike while at the peak of our strength. It will be the only time
when our Court might be near equal to Winter’s strength.
Otherwise, the seasons will change, and at Midwinter Mab and
her creatures will come for us. And they will destroy us, and
with us the balances of the mortal world.”

[Quantus]

I don't see any wiggle room, unless you think Aurora is lying.

While Im confident she could Lie, She wouldnt need to be, because once again we're confusing the COURT with the WHOLE.  She isnt lying anymore than Lea or Mab was Lying when they said that Lea was the Second most Powerful fae in all Winter next to Mab, even though Mother Winter Exists. Or anymore than when ever fae in history told somebody that the Forces of Summer and Winter were equal.  Context matters with them. 


If things operated as you say, then the Gates would be attacked HARD ever single Midsummer.  The Power each can play with in the Mortal realm, the part that is subject to Court Politics, ebs and flows, but I cannot buy that the total Sum of Power is as variable as you want to think. 

[Griffyn612]

While Im confident she could Lie, She wouldnt need to be, because once again we're confusing the COURT with the WHOLE.  She isnt lying anymore than Lea or Mab was Lying when they said that Lea was the Second most Powerful fae in all Winter next to Mab, even though Mother Winter Exists. Or anymore than when ever fae in history told somebody that the Forces of Summer and Winter were equal.  Context matters with them. 


If things operated as you say, then the Gates would be attacked HARD ever single Midsummer.  The Power each can play with in the Mortal realm, the part that is subject to Court Politics, ebs and flows, but I cannot buy that the total Sum of Power is as variable as you want to think.

Honestly, I'm not sure where to go with this.  The text clearly establishes that one Court grows stronger while the other weakens based on the active season in the northern hemisphere.

If their power was constant due to hemispheric equality, then the entire premise of Aurora's plan is false.  The entire plot of SK, with the Table passing from Court to Court, is pointless.

As for the Gates, those are manned by personnel, not by power.  What's more, there were goblins fighting (whom aren't members of Winter, even if they fight for them sometimes) and Summer Fae serving alongside Winter's troops.  It's a team effort, one that doesn't seem dependent on any fluctuating power levels between the Courts.