Weapons that can kill Immortals?

[groinkick]

Immortals can be killed on Halloween.  However I'm wondering if they can also be killed by special weapons.  The Swords come to mind, but what got me thinking about this was Morgan Le Fay's athame.  It's supposed to be on par with a Knight's Sword.  I'm wondering if that's why Leah wanted it so badly, to kill Mab and become the new Queen.  Now Mab has it....  It hasn't been talked about in recent books but I think it will come back in play.  The question is how, and why?  Will she use it to kill Mother Winter? 

[groinkick]

I also speculate that the Athame is actually Carnwennan:

Carnwennan, or Carnwenhau ("white hilt"), was the dagger of King Arthur in the Welsh Arthurian legends. It is sometimes attributed with the magical power to shroud its user in shadow. In Culhwch and Olwen Arthur names it as one of the few things in the world which he will not give to Culhwch. Later, he uses it to slay the witch Orddu daughter of Orwen by slicing her in half

[knnn]

We don't know when Michael killed Siriothrax, but if it wasn't coincidentally Halloween, I assume that using a Sword is sufficient.

[Snark Knight]

I also speculate that the Athame is actually Carnwennan:

Arthur being contemporary to Morgan, isn't it somewhat difficult for Morgan's athame to also be Arthur's dagger?

Now, the knife Mab had Harry use to sacrifice Slate? That, I could see for Carnwennan.

[groinkick]

Arthur being contemporary to Morgan, isn't it somewhat difficult for Morgan's athame to also be Arthur's dagger?

In the research I was doing last night Morgana wasn't known to have a magical knife.  Arthur on the other hand did.  Not only that but Morgana was known to steal Arthur's things. She stole Excalibur at least once.

[Quantus]

Would you really expect a knife historically known as "White Hilt" to be all black with an /obsidian/ blade?  Similarly the knife used on the Stone table was described as a bronze leaf-shapes blade with a simple wood and leather hilt. 


Fwiw, where Carnwennan appears, it is one of Three magic weapons attributed to Arthur:  Rhongomiant, Arthur's spear, and Caledfwlch, Arthur's sword, as sacred weapons given to him by God.  This has me thinking of KotC.  Since we already know that a) Arthur had Amoracchius, b)Wielders of Amoracchius are considered unusual even by KotC standards, and c) the only time a single person has wielded multiple Swords was Michael (DM, Ch. 32).  I have to at least raise the possibility that Arthur was just so damn badass that he was actually given use of all three?  As far as Hero levels go, he's got to rank up there with Merlin, who himself seems to have all but built the modern world order while breaking nigh cosmic-level natural laws (DR construction)

[groinkick]

Would you really expect a knife historically known as "White Hilt" to be all black with an /obsidian/ blade?  Similarly the knife used on the Stone table was described as a bronze leaf-shapes blade with a simple wood and leather hilt. 


Fwiw, where Carnwennan appears, it is one of Three magic weapons attributed to Arthur:  Rhongomiant, Arthur's spear, and Caledfwlch, Arthur's sword, as sacred weapons given to him by God.  This has me thinking of KotC.  Since we already know that a) Arthur had Amoracchius, b)Wielders of Amoracchius are considered unusual even by KotC standards, and c) the only time a single person has wielded multiple Swords was Michael (DM, Ch. 32).  I have to at least raise the possibility that Arthur was just so damn badass that he was actually given use of all three?  As far as Hero levels go, he's got to rank up there with Merlin, who himself seems to have all but built the modern world order while breaking nigh cosmic-level natural laws (DR construction)

Yeah the description of her blade is a major death blow to my theory, unless she modified Carnwennan for some reason.  If it's not the blade did Jim create his own lore, or what?  Because I can't find anything like that connected to her.

In lore she is able to turn things (including herself) into stone..  So my theory is on life support but she may have Carnwennan, and turned it into the obsidian blade we see in the book.

[Quantus]

Yeah the description of her blade is a major death blow to my theory, unless she modified Carnwennan for some reason.  If it's not the blade did Jim create his own lore, or what?  Because I can't find anything like that connected to her.

Id propose that all that means is that the athame was not already Famous in the same way most of the other magical artifacts were.  Per the WOJ on it, It sounds like it started as an ordinary thing, but the Athame accumulated Power through repeated Use rather than some specific endowment.  So Perhaps it wasnt yet "special" when Morgana had it, but she was famous and her followers kept using it and revering it, until if took on Power of it's own.  So by comparison, if the Council had preserved the original Merlin's staff (or any other famous wizards staff) and they'd kept it in active use all that time (maybe ceremonially pass it on to each sucessor) it would gain similar power.  Do you think that interpretation would fit the WOJ below?

What is the Black Athame, and what is it’s relation to Medea’s Bodkin?
The Black Athame was Morgan La Fay’s athame.  That was the one that got traded around in Grave Peril… at the vampire costume party.  Well an Athame is the original knife that was used in magic, and while they aren’t necessarily magical themselves, if you involve them in enough really cool big things that are going on, they start gaining their own sort of power and their own sort of awareness. Which is not to say they become intelligent or anything, but they become very extremely dangerous tools.  And that one was a very, very dangerous tool, on a level with Ammoracchius, which is why it got traded that way.  Medea’s Bodkin is another Athame that is far older, and is used more classically documented witches.  The ones who actually survived falls of several empires there –you still hear about them- Also a very bad news kind of implement, just so you know. 

[groinkick]

Id propose that all that means is that the athame was not already Famous in the same way most of the other magical artifacts were.  Per the WOJ on it, It sounds like it started as an ordinary thing, but the Athame accumulated Power through repeated Use rather than some specific endowment.  So Perhaps it wasnt yet "special" when Morgana had it, but she was famous and her followers kept using it and revering it, until if took on Power of it's own.  So by comparison, if the Council had preserved the original Merlin's staff (or any other famous wizards staff) and they'd kept it in active use all that time (maybe ceremonially pass it on to each sucessor) it would gain similar power.  Do you think that interpretation would fit the WOJ below?

What is the Black Athame, and what is it’s relation to Medea’s Bodkin?
The Black Athame was Morgan La Fay’s athame.  That was the one that got traded around in Grave Peril… at the vampire costume party.  Well an Athame is the original knife that was used in magic, and while they aren’t necessarily magical themselves, if you involve them in enough really cool big things that are going on, they start gaining their own sort of power and their own sort of awareness. Which is not to say they become intelligent or anything, but they become very extremely dangerous tools.  And that one was a very, very dangerous tool, on a level with Ammoracchius, which is why it got traded that way.  Medea’s Bodkin is another Athame that is far older, and is used more classically documented witches.  The ones who actually survived falls of several empires there –you still hear about them- Also a very bad news kind of implement, just so you know.

Interesting!  Wonder if that's how the Black Staff gained it's power

[Quantus]

Interesting!  Wonder if that's how the Black Staff gained it's power

Hmmm, possible?  Here's the WOJ on the Blackstaff's sources of Power, I think you could read it in that light (there's certainly similar wording there), depending on how you envision Mother Winter's wild college years...

2013 Wyrdcon Q&A
The Blackstaff is not sentient per se it’s just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe.  But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers.

[knnn]

Hmmm, possible?  Here's the WOJ on the Blackstaff's sources of Power, I think you could read it in that light (there's certainly similar wording there), depending on how you envision Mother Winter's wild college years...

Wasn't there another WoJ about how the Swords are special in some way (re:power) and he's only introduced one other such item so far (this is pre-SG) with the implication that it is the Blackstaff?

I may be misremembering.

[wyltok]

The Stone Table is probably a place where even immortals can die.

From the way Vadderung spoke about his office, I suspect Places of Power allow for killing of immortals as well. So, for example, I imagine Mab can kill immortals in Arctis Tor, and anyone Mother Winter cooks and eats isn't coming back.

For that matter, the Unraveling can possibly kill and immortal, when used in the right way...

[groinkick]

Wasn't there another WoJ about how the Swords are special in some way (re:power) and he's only introduced one other such item so far (this is pre-SG) with the implication that it is the Blackstaff?

I may be misremembering.

I thought there was a woj that there will be 9 powerful objects i the Dresdenverse

[wyltok]

Is the Merlin’s staff a special staff of office, like the Blackstaff, with special abilities?
There are very few objects that have “special abilities.” I’ve only shown about five of them, in fact, including the Swords, the Blackstaff, and the Noose.

[Quantus]

Wasn't there another WoJ about how the Swords are special in some way (re:power) and he's only introduced one other such item so far (this is pre-SG) with the implication that it is the Blackstaff?

I may be misremembering.

What Wyltok posted, that WOJ mentioned the swords, the noose, and the Blackstaff specifically.  It was back around the release of Changes, so none of the SG items would count, though worth noting that the shroud from DM is excluded while the Noose is not.  I personally give the Stone Table a pass on account of it being more of a Place of Power than a traditional Item of Power. 

I thought there was a woj that there will be 9 powerful objects i the Dresdenverse

Ive never heard anything predictive or that specific. Though I think we could call that one debunked post-SG, if we're agreed that the number is now up to at least Ten.  Eleven if you want to attribute more mythological significance to Hades' Crown (Helm of Hades?)