odd question

[khadgar4606]

okay here is few questions I have intrested
1. Can wizards create mantles of power like fey ladies?


2. can wizards give compleate mortal some magic gear giving them super powers?
small explanation for second one lets say lucio regains her ability to make swords and harry asks her to make sword for murrpy with some warden like abilities( while in cop mode she gains speed and supernatural instict to dodge bullets and vice versa)

so can any one answer these two questions

[Shaft]

okay here is few questions I have intrested
1. Can wizards create mantles of power like fey ladies?

If you mean can a sufficiently powerful Mortal Wizard bestowing powers upon another person?  To my knowledge it has never been done, but it could also mean transforming their target which violates the Second Law.

2. Can wizards give complete mortal some magic gear giving them super powers?
small explanation for second one lets say Lucio regains her ability to make swords and Harry asks her to make a sword for Murphy with some warden like abilities (while in cop mode she gains speed and supernatural instinct to dodge bullets and vice versa)

Yes they can.  However, it depends on how long the mortal will keep the gear for.

If it's a loan, the wizard can use one of their own Enchanted Item slots, assuming the Enchanted Item is built in a way that it can be used by another.

If it's a long term gift, the recipient would have to buy the item as an Item of Power and lose the Pure Mortal bonus (but that loss could be offset by the discount from the Item of Power ability).

[khadgar4606]

If you mean can a sufficiently powerful Mortal Wizard bestowing powers upon another person?  To my knowledge it has never been done, but it could also mean transforming their target which violates the Second Law.

yes but creator is also human in this case( i want harry to create mantle of dresden for his friends) also is it counts as sponsored magic for rules perspective

Yes they can.  However, it depends on how long the mortal will keep the gear for.

If it's a loan, the wizard can use one of their own Enchanted Item slots, assuming the Enchanted Item is built in a way that it can be used by another.

If it's a long term gift, the recipient would have to buy the item as an Item of Power and lose the Pure Mortal bonus (but that loss could be offset by the discount from the Item of Power ability).

i think as permanent boost to her stats with bit of warden mojo

[g33k]

yes but creator is also human in this case( i want harry to create mantle of dresden for his friends) also is it counts as sponsored magic for rules perspective

I'm not really seeing this, myself.  The thing about Sponsored Magic is that the Sponsor takes on the load from what the caster does in their name.  It would seem to imply a sort of bilocated consciousness...  wherever the sponsor is, plus wherever the sponsored caster is; that would sort of require a sleepless "always available" entity to be the Sponsor.

Also -- are you imagining this leaves Harry without his magic (because it's in the Mantle of Dresden being worn by someone else)?

If not:  Harry regularly runs *HIMSELF* to the ragged edge, just with the shenanigans he gets up to; if he was Sponsoring someone else, simultaneously, to be a caster "wearing his mantle" -- he'd run out of juice all the faster!

Last but not least:  Harry has vast stores of arcane Lore and hard-won experiences, telling him how and when and why to use magic, & how and when and why NOT to.  I can't really see him handing over Dresden-caliber magic to someone without that background (to much like leaving a hand-grenade in with a bag of baseballs at the Little League game... ) .
 

[Quantus]

Here's a WOJ on the Mantle thing in-universe that might help on the power scales involved:

Twitter:
@longshotauthor is it possible for the Erlking to create a Wyld Knight or some equivalent?
@SuperSnapper61 Engh. He could feasibly take a part of his own power and fashion a new mantle from it.  Much weaker than the WK though.
@den_down_unda @jim_turnage The Erlking is simply not on the same scale of power as Mab, though he could probably hand Molly her head.

The implication I get from this is that to make a Mantle in the way you describe requires that you take an existing mantle and carve a piece of it off, thereby reducing the remaining power of the original host.  The Fae have specific drive to do this relating to Cosmic Law and Free Will loopholes, but I dont know what sort of benefit one mortal would get to empower another that way, even assuming they had Power on a level with Mab or even the Erlking to try in the first place.    If it were mortal-to-mortal, Id think you'd be better serves (philosophically) by raising a protege rather than attempting what I think amounts to a psycho-surgical Power-dump.  If it were a mortal empowering a spirit minion, I dont think it takes that kind of effort, if you consider how Toot is getting tangible Power from his service to Harry, which is increasing as Harry's Power and prominence does.   

[khadgar4606]

Here's a WOJ on the Mantle thing in-universe that might help on the power scales involved:


yadi yada yadi yada

so if harry wants he can carve / tame winter mantle in to his personal mantle with any powers he wants to give to Chicago's robin
thanks for information guys time to brew some fanon

[Quantus]

so if harry wants he can carve / tame winter mantle in to his personal mantle with any powers he wants to give to Chicago's robin
thanks for information guys time to brew some fanon

Maaaaybe?  I think you are talking about first Emancipating the Winter Knight Mantle itself from the Winter Court, and then Making a new mantle from that? Those would be two separate steps/adventures but I dont see why that couldnt be made to work in a game, I suppose, thought the spinoff mantle would be exponentially weaker than the original, and the original would be diminished.

A couple things that, while not deal-breaking obstacles, will likely need to be considered:
-Is it typically Possible for a Mortal Mantle to be able to exist independent of the Immortal one that made it, or was this a special case?
-Is it possible for one Mortal mantle alone to Sponsor another, or would it require a supernatural "co-sponsor" (possibly relevant to the always available power source issue g33k mentioned)
-To what degree is the spinoff Mantle less powerful than the original?  Does it Vary?
-To what degree is the original Mantle less powerful than before?  Does it Vary?


From a cannon/mechanic baggage perspective, it might be far simpler to describe it less as a new Knight Mantle carved from an old one, but rather describe it as some sort of magical umbilical conduit from Harry to 'Robin', so they can tap the existing Mantle's Power (and possibly the Winter source behind it) without altering it in any fundamental way.  That way you side-step the entire issue surrounding the definition and mechanics of Mantles, as well as the impact and/or permanence it would have on Harry's original Power;  it's now just normal Magic. If it were me I think Id go with a pair of Magic Tattoos that provide a link since per WOJ such spells are subject to the bearers emotional state (like Susan's tattoos) which is useful Heroic scene fodder, allowing for situational bursts of Power.  You'll want to decide early how to handle the conduit in terms of barriers like Circles, Ways, and open/running water, etc. 

[g33k]

so if harry wants he can carve / tame winter mantle in to his personal mantle with any powers he wants to give to Chicago's robin
thanks for information guys time to brew some fanon

I don't think the WK mantle is amenable to this.  YMMV, of course, but I suspect this is wildly non-canonical.

*MAB* is in charge of the WK mantle; she will notice any tampering (and doubly so the Mothers!).  She's prone to sentence people to a lifetime of torture for the crime of no longer being useful to her...  And any effort Harry made to "emancipate" the Mantle would draw her extreme & immediate ire.

Recall that in Summer Knight, Summer & Winter were going to war -- apocalyptic, world-changing war -- in large part because one Court had a Knight with an active Mantle, and the other Court did not...

[khadgar4606]

okay guys i know breaking winter mantle is ballsy harry like move but bastard technically did same on lashciel and turn it to self sacrificing angel named lash so its possibility to harry to screw fate and create uther peaceful version of the winter mantle to fuel mantle of dresden while forcing fey queens to pay the cost instead of him but again my question is can wizard with sufficent power create a mantle of power and looks like they can as all forum agrees this answer so can any one homebrew the rules for it?

[Anubissama]

I think Dresden is a bit of a special Knight, in the fact that he bargained for his position of Knight.

I think there is even a WoJ that speaks to it. When asked if Harry like Molly has a Winter Knight Account with 7 zeros lying around, Jim says no. Because Harry gets paid in power, he gets the power of the Winter Knight Mantle and for that, he is a consultant to Mab, where his word iirc.

I'm not saying that this makes it a sure thing, but I get the feeling that Dresden is in a unique position in regards to other Winter Knights that he might have a bigger ownership over the Mantle since it is his payment so to speak.

[Quantus]

I think Dresden is a bit of a special Knight, in the fact that he bargained for his position of Knight.

I think there is even a WoJ that speaks to it. When asked if Harry like Molly has a Winter Knight Account with 7 zeros lying around, Jim says no. Because Harry gets paid in power, he gets the power of the Winter Knight Mantle and for that, he is a consultant to Mab, where his word iirc.

I'm not saying that this makes it a sure thing, but I get the feeling that Dresden is in a unique position in regards to other Winter Knights that he might have a bigger ownership over the Mantle since it is his payment so to speak.

I tended to look at it the other way (though this might jsut be the other side of the same coin).  A normal Knight like Slade or probably Fix is relying on the Mantle for the majority of their power, and consequently their obligation for obedience seems a little more absolute.  Harry still gets the same Mantle-based power package, but he gets none of the ancillary support he might have gotten if he'd been willing to more completely enter Mab's service. He made it clear that she could give him Tasks and Goal but could not then have any input in /how/ he executes those orders; by doing so he lost all those extra's, since be having no say in how he executes the task, she has no obligation to provide additional/situational support for the task as the Means, the How, are 100% Harry's responsibility.   If she were dictating more specifically how he was expected to accomplish her orders, she'd then be on the hook for providing certain resources to make it happen, and potentially more basic things like Room&Board. 

[g33k]

I tended to look at it the other way (though this might jsut be the other side of the same coin).  A normal Knight like Slade or probably Fix is relying on the Mantle for the majority of their power, and consequently their obligation for obedience seems a little more absolute.  Harry still gets the same Mantle-based power package, but he gets none of the ancillary support he might have gotten if he'd been willing to more completely enter Mab's service. He made it clear that she could give him Tasks and Goal but could not then have any input in /how/ he executes those orders; by doing so he lost all those extra's, since be having no say in how he executes the task, she has no obligation to provide additional/situational support for the task as the Means, the How, are 100% Harry's responsibility.   If she were dictating more specifically how he was expected to accomplish her orders, she'd then be on the hook for providing certain resources to make it happen, and potentially more basic things like Room&Board. 

I think Mab has pretty much exactly what she wants from her Knight.  When Harry attempted to suicide-out from under Winter's Knighthood -- and almost succeeded! -- Mab was thrilled by his display of competence and deceit, coming >this< close to out-maneuvering her; her first real assignment for Harry was to go into a major Op being run by fallen Angels (chief servants of, y'know, the bloody Prince of Lies!) and trick & outmaneuver them all.

Remember that the primary role of the Knight is NOT as muscle or power (the Queens and the Ladies and their courts have TONS of that already); it is to bring Mortal agency to Winter, to do things that Faeries themselves cannot do by their Fae-bound natures. 

As such, Harry's ardent independence serves Mab far better than his slavish obedience ever could.
 

[Quantus]

I think Mab has pretty much exactly what she wants from her Knight.  When Harry attempted to suicide-out from under Winter's Knighthood -- and almost succeeded! -- Mab was thrilled by his display of competence and deceit, coming >this< close to out-maneuvering her; her first real assignment for Harry was to go into a major Op being run by fallen Angels (chief servants of, y'know, the bloody Prince of Lies!) and trick & outmaneuver them all.

Remember that the primary role of the Knight is NOT as muscle or power (the Queens and the Ladies and their courts have TONS of that already); it is to bring Mortal agency to Winter, to do things that Faeries themselves cannot do by their Fae-bound natures. 

As such, Harry's ardent independence serves Mab far better than his slavish obedience ever could.

I think he was hoping for this level of Competence without the confrontational habits; She very much wanted him to be "Her Monster" which Uriel ultimately prevented.  She certainly does not want the useless micro-managed lump that Harry threatened to become, but she'd certainly take more enthusiastic obedience, maybe a bit of real loyalty, things like that.   

[g33k]

I think he was hoping for this level of Competence without the confrontational habits 

She's Mab.  She wouldn't trust anything of the sort; not if it came from Harry Dresden !

She very much wanted him to be "Her Monster" which Uriel ultimately prevented.  She certainly does not want the useless micro-managed lump that Harry threatened to become, but she'd certainly take more enthusiastic obedience, maybe a bit of real loyalty, things like that.

Dunno... I think Mab wants Harry to *THINK* she wants to break him to her yoke:  there's very little likely to elicit such automatic resistance from HCBD.  And Mab is no fool when it comes to tricking and manipulating mortals.  Harry's 1st-person narrative is experiential:  of COURSE we see it from Harry's POV; that includes being subject to Mab's Butcher's manipulation.

But I suspect we'll just have to agree to disagree.   
 

[Quantus]

She's Mab.  She wouldn't trust anything of the sort; not if it came from Harry Dresden !
Dunno... I think Mab wants Harry to *THINK* she wants to break him to her yoke:  there's very little likely to elicit such automatic resistance from HCBD.  And Mab is no fool when it comes to tricking and manipulating mortals.  Harry's 1st-person narrative is experiential:  of COURSE we see it from Harry's POV; that includes being subject to Mab's Butcher's manipulation.

But I suspect we'll just have to agree to disagree.   

I dont think she has that sort of semantic wriggle room anymore.  We know per WOJ that in the cave when harry woke up, she was /incorrect/ about Harry's Free Will, rather than "lying" about it.  I dont think she could have been sincerely incorrect in those statements while still maintaining the level of layered deception you describe.