What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

[Quantus]

I need to summarize my current stance, just to organize my own thought more than anything. bear with me

Fact: Saints can Kick Ass.  That's really the only thing we know for sure, that they can lead groups against Black Court scourges and at least one was enough of a challenge for Thorned Namsiel that it used a bunch of lethal strangulation spells as a distraction to pick one's pocket (as she did against Harry). 

Assumption:  Saints are Rare.  This is based on the Real-world Usage where even Popes cannot be assumed to be holy and/or favored enough. 

Assumption: Sainthood requires some HiP Sponsor

By these things I discount Forthill, Charity, Murphy, most Popes, and Anyone dead but not Better (like Jack). 

I have two working definitions that are more or less equal but exclusive to each other. 

1)Saint gets power via Super-dedication, IE Michael.  The key bit of this side is that he has consciously willfully accepted the Faith of the deity and models his whole life after it (a level of...devotion? I see as different from the other more ambiguous or accidental Knights.

2)Saints get power for being Chosen by TWG &Co, IE Harry.  The key bit here is that TWG's side decides you are worth sponsoring, more or less independent of your opinions on the matter (within the bounds of Free Will, naturally).


If #1 is correct, then Michael is the closest thing to a Saint we've seen, unless Forthill is hiding unknown depths of Practical Badassery.  Harry and all other KotC would fall short, though Shiro is firmly a Martyr which is kinda close.  Im willing to accept the DV Definition of Martyr as anyone who Takes On the Fate of Another(supernaturally) and Dies in their place, as Shiro did.   

If #2 is correct, Michael and Shiro both might also qualify, unless Soulfire is the specific indicator/mechanism. 





Holy PUP!  I just realized that there is a completely separate possibility Ive neglected.  Ive been framing the question as "what would qualify /a mortal/ as a Saint".  What if that's not how it works, and you cannot Become a Saint any more than You can Become an Angel?  What if instead Saint is the human Equivalents of a Foo Dog, a "a celestial being which chooses to give up its divinity (and immortality) to serve and protect in the mortal world. Part of being mortal is having offspring, who share in their progenitor's power."   What if Mouse is the closest thing to a Saint, or the descendant of one?

How do you all feel about the notion of Saintly bloodlines?  Defining Sainthood more akin to a diluted nephilim?

[Serack]

Or perhaps we shouldn't using the "saint label" at all?

 
Jim's the one who used the "saint label" thus it's appropriate to the discussion of Jim's work.

I also disagree about Harry, he does have faith, that was demonstrated in Storm Front when his pentacle acted like a Cross would against Bianca because for him it is a symbol of his faith in his magic.   Harry is dedicated to that faith..

 
Hmmmm, my opinion on what makes Harry's faith here different from a Saint's faith is subtle but IMO critical.  My reading of the long LKH WoJ (admittedly only generally applicable to the DF universe as a thematic foundation, but not canon for Jim's writing...) is that in faith magic, properly applied to an enemy of the HiP (in the WoJ referred to as the Creator) results in the Creator intervening.  Depending on the level of free will of the enemy, the quality of the faith in the HiP may be poor and yet still warrant intervention from the HiP. 

In this possibly thematically relevant interpretation, the "saintly" faith is in a HiP with Will, and I'll further define "dedicated absolute faith" as submitting to the "Will" of this HiP. 

Harry's Faith based vampire repellent, as explained in SF, GP, and a few other vampire encounters is in the POWERS of creation as an amorphous, non willed concept that he can and does wield with his own wizardly abilities.  This is in contrast with my refined definition of a saintly faith which requires submittal to the Will of the subject the faith is put in.  Something Harry generally doesn't do, except maybe the one time he claims to have had faith in TWG's coming through for Michael in PG. 

So Harry's dedicated to his faith in the POWERS of creation, but he doesn't submit to them.  Hell, I'd go so far as to say that he directly confronted a fundamental, willed aspect of those very "POWERS" of creation, "a fundamental power of the world" ^{CD Ch. 32} and although he paid it respect, he absolutely refused to submit to it in when he threw off the will of Mother Winter in her cabin. 

Not sure what you mean by HiP?  Higher Power?

I was explicit in what I meant by that.

wyltok,
I'm reluctant to fit faith magic into the thaumaturgic model, but I don't necessarily think the model doesn't fit.  My quibble is in saying that all sponsorship magic is faith magic. 

There is something to the point that living by the codes of Winter Law affects Harry's efficacy of using Winter Power.  OTOH, I think there this a reciprocal advantage to Harry retaining his free will vs it getting subsumed by Winter's nature.  If it is possible for Harry to achieve some kind of harmony between retaining his free will and submitting to the nature of Winter, this would be ideal, but it may be that the closest thing to Harmony he can achieve is a constant, painful struggle between the two. 

Quantus
Your #2 is interesting.  I've suspected for a while now that Harry isn't a full on Saint, but that by the time the story's over, he may be, and this might be the mechanism.  Although I think submittal to the Will of the HiP may still be key for a true saint. 

[Quantus]

Quantus
Your #2 is interesting.  I've suspected for a while now that Harry isn't a full on Saint, but that by the time the story's over, he may be, and this might be the mechanism.  Although I think submittal to the Will of the HiP may still be key for a true saint.

I suspect a similar future path, to be honest.  Though I could see a scene where Somebody informs a dumbfounded Harry that he's been a Saint for years, and was just too busy being afraid he was a Monster. 

The thing that I like about the Harry/Soulfire definition is that it's something tangible while being something observable from the outside, as opposed to a definition needing an intimate understanding of the person's motivations, beliefs, or cosmological world-view.  Which sounds like me hoping that Faith of all things would be more Objective, and thats probably futile.   

[Serack]

Just read this:

Holy PUP!  I just realized that there is a completely separate possibility Ive neglected.  Ive been framing the question as "what would qualify /a mortal/ as a Saint".  What if that's not how it works, and you cannot Become a Saint any more than You can Become an Angel?  What if instead Saint is the human Equivalents of a Foo Dog, a "a celestial being which chooses to give up its divinity (and immortality) to serve and protect in the mortal world. Part of being mortal is having offspring, who share in their progenitor's power."   What if Mouse is the closest thing to a Saint, or the descendant of one?

How do you all feel about the notion of Saintly bloodlines?  Defining Sainthood more akin to a diluted nephilim?

Ugg...  In the back of my mind I was considering parallels between Saints and Starborn.  Heck a Saint might be a Starborn who choses to Champion for the HiP... 

Also, when I earlier used the term "Spectrum" of saintliness, I was thinking how everybody in the DF has some level of aptitude for Magic, kinda like singing or basketball, but only some are born with enough to be Council level skills, and that Saintliness may be similar...

The idea of Saintly bloodlines repels me though.  Too divergent from what I'm willing to accept about RL I guess.  But that's personal, and may or may not be relevant. 

[Griffyn612]

Can we say there's a class of Sponsored Clerics, of which Saint is the subclass for TWG's peeps, and Harry's faith in magic makes him a Cleric of Magic?

[Quantus]

Can we say there's a class of Sponsored Clerics, of which Saint is the subclass for TWG's peeps, and Harry's faith in magic makes him a Cleric of Magic?

I feel like this is a Rabbit hole we might be best to avoid.  For me it would come down to the ill-defined Line between religious-Magic (which supposedly exists in the Council) and actual Faith Energy which Bob cannot perceive.  The Fae Knight, for example, is being sponsored by an external source but is being fed the same Life Energy that Harry and Lea and everyone breathing uses, as opposed to the Sword stuff or supposedly a lot of the Real Soul-fire stuff.

[Griffyn612]

I feel like this is a Rabbit hole we might be best to avoid.  For me it would come down to the ill-defined Line between religious-Magic (which supposedly exists in the Council) and actual Faith Energy which Bob cannot perceive.  The Fae Knight, for example, is being sponsored by an external source but is being fed the same Life Energy that Harry and Lea and everyone breathing uses, as opposed to the Sword stuff or supposedly a lot of the Real Soul-fire stuff.

I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity.  Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system.  They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.

i.e. one Saint might turn water into wine, while a Walī might not be able to based on his beliefs (unless he's an Alevi Muslim) 

[Quantus]

I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity.  Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system.  They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.

i.e. one Saint might turn water into wine, while a Walī might not be able to based on his beliefs (unless he's an Alevi Muslim)

That Im entirely fine wiht, as those are all still firmly on the Religious Faith side of the line. It would be with non-religious, magic-based Sponsors like Winter/Mab that I saw the rabbithole in. 

[wyltok]

Harry's faith in magic makes him a Cleric of Magic?

Would you say that Magic makes a Choice when it answers Dresden's "prayers". If he does, then it's still a Miracle rather than Magic, and I see no problem with it. If there's nothing on the other side that judges the prayer and finds it worthy, then I don't know if I can buy into the idea of a Cleric of Magic.

On the other hand, WoJ is that Morgan's Athame isn't exactly sentient, but it's still both powerful and dangerous, so maybe I'm asking for something that isn't really necessary here...

[Griffyn612]

Would you say that Magic makes a Choice when it answers Dresden's "prayers". If he does, then it's still a Miracle rather than Magic, and I see no problem with it. If there's nothing on the other side that judges the prayer and finds it worthy, then I don't know if I can buy into the idea of a Cleric of Magic.

On the other hand, WoJ is that Morgan's Athame isn't exactly sentient, but it's still both powerful and dangerous, so maybe I'm asking for something that isn't really necessary here...

What you're talking about is sponsored magic versus unsponsored magic.  For sponsored magic, someone asks for something (prayer/ritual/etc) and a Power either makes its happen, or gives them the power to do it themselves.  For unsponsored magic, someone either uses their own power, or uses the power readily available to everyone, to make it happen. 

In my opinion, when Harry uses his faith in magic to deter beings repelled by faith magic, he's using a loop hole to make his spirit magic function in a way that mimics or duplicates the effect of faith magic.  That would not make him a "Cleric" of sponsored magic.

The Cleric subclasses would simply be for different titles of different religions. 

I'm not as quick as Quantus to dismiss Mab & Co. as non-religion magic, as I think there's still enough "Hecate" in them to potentially allow them to empower a believer.  But I agree that the Sidhe Courts, as they currently exist, have little to do with worship (i.e. subservient/obeisant/reverent to a Power, which gifts some of their Free Will to the subject), which I think is integral to faith magic.  (I do think that the Sidhe gain power through humans, but that's another matter)

[Mira]

So Harry's dedicated to his faith in the POWERS of creation, but he doesn't submit to them.  Hell, I'd go so far as to say that he directly confronted a fundamental, willed aspect of those very "POWERS" of creation, "a fundamental power of the world" CD Ch. 32 and although he paid it respect, he absolutely refused to submit to it in when he threw off the will of Mother Winter in her cabin. 

I know those passages, they among my favorites in the entire series and that isn'thow I read them..

Yes, Harry will pit his will against any power..  And he tried that when Mother Winter had him pinned down..   page 316 hardback Cold Days...  Very much the old Harry...

But I could defy absolutely anyone.
I could lift my will against that of anything, and know that the fight might be lopsided, but never hopeless.  And by thunder, I was not going to allow anyone's will to stretch me out on the floor like a lamb to slaughter.

But, as he goes on there is a change from the old Harry, a hint of what Uriel intended he should learn on his soul's walk about in Ghost Story..  Harry says on page 316  " And then I crossed my fingers.."  That in of itself is an act of faith..  One crosses one's fingers in hope that something wanted desperately will come to pass, not a formal prayer perhaps, but a form of prayer in my opinion, a hope, a prayer, a plea for good fortune..

Harry goes on to say.. "And I crossed my fingers and reached into me, into the place  where a covert archangel had granted me access to one of the primal forces of the universe, an energy called soulfire.."  I call that an acknowledgement
of a higher power... After all who is Uriel's Boss?

Then on page 317  He gives Bob's definition of what soul fire and how it works with the soul.. But then he says..

Bob is brilliant, but there are some things that he just doesn't get.   His definition was a good place to get started, but it was also something that was perhaps too comfortably quantifiable.  The soul isn't something you can weigh and measure.  It's more than just one thing.  Because soulfire interacts with souls in a way that I'm not sure anyone understands, it stands to reason soulfire isn't just one thing either.

Then he says in that moment, he knew exactly what the soulfire did.  It wasn't about simply supercharging a magic spell.

He goes on to say,

I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---against the will of an ancient being of darkness, terror, and malice, a fundamental power of the world.

I argue that he did submit to the powers of creation, that is why he was able to break the bonds..  If he merely respected them as you say, then in my opinion he would have merely turbocharged his spell or will to break the bonds, but I don't think that would have been enough to do it..  He says outright that those powers are not quantifiable, and he took that understanding and cast it with everything he believed, was, and will ever be.. That broke the bonds... And note how special that moment was so unlike anything else we've seen with Harry pitting his will against something more powerful than himself...

And the bonds and the will of Mother Winter could not constrain me..  There was a sharp, shimmering tone, like metal under stress and beginning to fail, but more musical, and a blinding white light that washed away the darkness and dazzled my eyes.

The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform in my opinion... It wasn't your garden variety wizard's spell..

[Serack]

I argue that he did submit to the powers of creation, that is why he was able to break the bonds..  If he merely respected them as you say, then in my opinion he would have merely turbocharged his spell or will to break the bonds, but I don't think that would have been enough to do it..  He says outright that those powers are not quantifiable, and he took that understanding and cast it with everything he believed, was, and will ever be.. That broke the bonds... And note how special that moment was so unlike anything else we've seen with Harry pitting his will against something more powerful than himself...

The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform in my opinion... It wasn't your garden variety wizard's spell..

I see that categorically differently.  That is not faith in an external higher power.  That is faith in the power of everything he "believed, was and will ever be."  Himself.  His. Own. Personal. Power.  Not power derived from something bigger than himself.  No this power IS HIMSELF, his very being was cast into the crafting.

Yah, that's not garden variety wizardy, but it's not faith in the power of something on high either, and thus absolutely not a demonstration of sainthood. 

Another tack:  I'm not well versed on the RL cannonization process, but it is my understanding that it requires people attributing miracles to someone already dead and in heaven.  The Miracle transpires because someone prayed to the candidate Saint, who is already in Heaven.  Because they are already in Heaven, they are able to intercede directly to God on the prayer's behalf.  The miracle happens, proving that the candidate Saint is in fact in Heaven talking to God.  The critical factor for me in this discussion is that it's God who performs the miracle, due to the Saint's intercession, not the Saint performing the miracle. 

So again.  When you say "The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform" I must disagree.  Vehemently. 

[groinkick]

I'm talking about people using faith magic in religions other than Christianity.  Another would be a Walī, who might have different abilities and gifts based on their beliefs within their system.  They're largely equal, and recognized by each other as being more or less the same, but there might still be differences in purview.

i.e. one Saint might turn water into wine, while a Walī might not be able to based on his beliefs (unless he's an Alevi Muslim)

Makes sense.  A faith based magic user might be able to summon fire because of their faith in Agni, India's god of fire, while holy magic might be different in nature.

[Mira]

I see that categorically differently.  That is not faith in an external higher power.  That is faith in the power of everything he "believed, was and will ever be."  Himself.  His. Own. Personal. Power.  Not power derived from something bigger than himself.  No this power IS HIMSELF, his very being was cast into the crafting.

Yah, that's not garden variety wizardy, but it's not faith in the power of something on high either, and thus absolutely not a demonstration of sainthood. 

Another tack:  I'm not well versed on the RL cannonization process, but it is my understanding that it requires people attributing miracles to someone already dead and in heaven.  The Miracle transpires because someone prayed to the candidate Saint, who is already in Heaven.  Because they are already in Heaven, they are able to intercede directly to God on the prayer's behalf.  The miracle happens, proving that the candidate Saint is in fact in Heaven talking to God.  The critical factor for me in this discussion is that it's God who performs the miracle, due to the Saint's intercession, not the Saint performing the miracle. 

So again.  When you say "The above is pretty descriptive of a miracle that a saint would perform" I must disagree.  Vehemently.

And I disagree, while you state what is the usual definition of a saint as sort of an advocate in Heaven before God.. Sort of well, Ed was a good man and after he died I asked him to ask God to cure my dying cat, George, who had an incurable disease.. And George lived, it is a miracle ergo Ed must be a saint because he asked God to cure George on my behalf..

But what about in the saint's lifetime?  I perhaps shouldn't have said it was the kind of miracle saints perform, because they really don't, they are instruments..  But it still comes back to faith and belief..  Harry is a believer whether he admits to it or not.. Take his rant at the Almighty in Small Favor as Michael is hurt and just before Uriel as "Jake" appears to him for the first time.  Of all the gods and semi-gods in the series, the Almighty is never seen by Harry, the Almighty has never spoken  directly to him, yet here is Harry in an empty room angrily ranting at God,  because Michael is hurt and he feels that He allowed it, and He aught to do something about it...  And guess what?  Michael recovers.. Now you can argue that it wasn't because of Harry's prayer, but an equal argument can be made that it was..  Harry's rant, though perhaps not a prayer in the classic sense, was still a prayer, an angry plea to the Almighty to help his dying friend who works so hard in the service of Him..  Interesting timing that an archangel should appear at that moment isn't it? 

His plea to Uriel in Changes,  Harry pleas because he feels helpless..  Uriel's answer is what can be done with in the rules set down by Heaven have been done, the rest is up to him, his free will choices.. A few hints as well to set him thinking. 

Then in the short story, "The Warrior," Uriel calls Harry just that...  In the guise of Jake:

" Do you think you haven't struck a blow for the light,. Warrior?"

Jake also says

"Harry," Jake said, sighing.  "The conflict between light and darkness rages on so many levels that you literally could not understand it all.  Not yet, anyway.  Sometimes that battlefield is a literal one.  Sometimes it's a great deal more nebulous and metaphorical."
"But Michael and I are literal guys," I said.
Jake actually laughed.  "Yeah?  Do you think we angled to have you brought into this situation because we needed you to beat someone up?"

Then Jake goes on to talk about the various "battles" being fought, but the main point here is, Harry as an instrument...
What are saints in their lifetimes?  Instruments..

Back to the event in Cold Days with Mother Winter, I think you miss the point I was trying to make.  If Harry was just pulling power from himself as you say, then he merely would of cast a spell and turbo charged it with soul fire and the bonds would have broken.. But that isn't what happened..  He now acknowledges that the soul is something more, that shows spiritual growth and why the moment is so beautiful.

[Serack]

But what about in the saint's lifetime?  I perhaps shouldn't have said it was the kind of miracle saints perform, because they really don't, they are instruments..  But it still comes back to faith and belief.. 

Ok, you seem to get the gyst of my point, but won't conceded the conclusion. 

For formalities sake, I'll include a DF example that clearly answers, "What about in the saint's lifetime?"

"Father," he murmured, humbly and with no drama whatsoever.  "Father, please help my friend.  Father of light, banish the darkness that he may see.  Father of truth, expose the lies.  Father of mercy, ease his pain.  Father of love, honor this good man's heart.  Amen."
Michael's hand felt suddenly red-hot, and I felt power burning in the air around him--not magic, the magic I worked with every day.  This was something different, something more ancient, more potent, more pure. This was the power of faith, and as that heat settled into the spaces behind my eyes, something cracked and shattered inside my thoughts.

This is a Saint relying on his faith for a miracle and receiving it.  From start to finish it is recognized by the Saint as coming from a HiP and not from his own power. 

I won't say Harry is bereft of faith.  But his power isn't based on his faith in a HiP.  Something I consider a requisite for a "Champion Saint." 

Back to the event in Cold Days with Mother Winter, I think you miss the point I was trying to make.  If Harry was just pulling power from himself as you say, then he merely would of cast a spell and turbo charged it with soul fire and the bonds would have broken.. But that isn't what happened..  He now acknowledges that the soul is something more, that shows spiritual growth and why the moment is so beautiful.

I concluded that your point was clearly that it was the work of a miracle by a saint, since that's exactly what you said.  And since I disagreed, I explained why I disagreed.

In case you missed my point earlier, the "something more" his soul is would be his very "Being." Himself.  Who and What he is.  Which he worded as "I was casting everything I had done, everything I believed, everything I had chosen---everything I was---"  His power came from him.  Special yes.  Saintly no.