What is a Saint? (Series Spoilers)

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Ive long wondered about the Nature of a Saint in the DF.  We have three mentions of Saints in WOJ. One that St George is in fact responsible for the rarity of lesser dragons in modern times, one that says they were one possible example of a Champion of the mortal masses (listed along "an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies").  The last is confirmation that one of Vadderung names (mantles?) is Saint Nicholas, along with other various versions of santa (kringle, Sinterklaas, Father Christmas).

In common usage (as I know it), a Saint is somebody that is holy and/or chosen by God, which the Church eventually recognizes.  That's an important distinction, I think, because the Church does not claim to actually make anyone a Saint, nor do they consider the known Saints to be a complete list (the idea is that a bunch of anonymous Saints would be revealed during the Second Coming/Revelations).  So while the RL process for Saints cannot be completed until after the person's death, there is no theological conflict with them having Saintly abilities in life, as would be indicated by them acting as living Champions. 

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2009 WoJ forum post
4. if the elders of the black court could have taken mab, then HOW ON EARTH did any mere force of humans manage to go up and stake them? i mean, they should've wiped out anything that was coming after them if they can take on MAB herself...just a thought
Power in the spirit world isn't the same thing as power in the material world.  And a one-on-thirtyish fight (Mab vs the elders of the BC) is WAY different than a one-on-20,000 fight (a BC vampire against a modest mortal city).  Especially when the 20,000 know what your weaknesses are, and how to kill you with them. Smiley  And that's assuming that you don't have a saint, or an independent wizard, or a shaman, a Knight of the Cross or some other champion, or other spiritual allies on your side which was not uncommon.  Hell, for that matter, you might well be aided by vampires from the other Courts.  *Everyone* resented how powerful the Blacks had become.

2009 WoJ forum post:
6. ferrovax - is this because he's the OLDEST dragon? (i thought it was an empty boast) or because he's a dragon?
Ferrovax feels absolutely no need to boast.  It's because he /is/ a Dragon, large D, an elemental force of the cosmos.  He isn't some kind of Smaug hanging around a nice apartment.  He's a Dragon in a more Asian sense of the concept, a semi-divine being who was once given authority over various portions of the mortal universe, and who was responsible for their orderly procession.  There /are/ Smauglike dragons (though not nearly as many now as there have been in the past, thanks George!) but they are essentially nothing but emissaries and servitors created in the image of the real thing.
Regardless of big D or little d, dragons almost universally resent humanity for usurping the balance of power in the world.

2015 AMA
Vadderung is Santa Claus, is he also St Nicholas?
And Father Christmas and Sinterklaas and a variety of others. But in our modern era, a lot of people wear multiple hats on the job. 

[Teslas Shadow]

Saint Patrick was also mentioned as having used the Loup Garou curse.

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Saint Patrick was also mentioned as having used the Loup Garou curse.

True, Id forgotten that actual text mention, thanks.  Grain of salt on that one is that the context of the mention was a Demon placing blame for a centuries-old murderous Curse on said famous Saint, and several forumites over the years have expressed skepticism given the infernal source.  Hell, harry expresses skepticism for the same reason. 

Chauncy smiled, a rather intimidating expression. "MacFinn is a member of an ancient family line from an island known as Ireland. His family has a notable history. Sometime in the murky past, legend would have it, the man known as Saint Patrick cursed his ancestor to become a ravening beast at every full moon. The curse came with two addenda. First, that it would be hereditary, passing down to someone new each and every generation. And second, that the cursed line of the family would never, ever die out, lasting until the end of days."

I wrote that down as well. "A Catholic saint did that?"

Chauncy made a sound of distaste. "I am not responsible for the sorts of people the Other Side employs, wizard. Or the tactics they use."

"Considering the source, I think I'll note it as a biased opinion. Your folk have done a thousand times worse," I said.

[groinkick]

Hrmmm  Maybe Saints are wizards who specialize in faith based magic to the point it's the only form of magic they practice and therefor aren't actually part of the White Council?

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Hrmmm  Maybe Saints are wizards who specialize in faith based magic to the point it's the only form of magic they practice and therefor aren't actually part of the White Council?

Interesting notion.  We've been told repeatedly that Harry is pretty far on the Magic=Science end of the spectrum and that not all on the Council see it that way.  But despite that there is a qualitative difference between Magic and Faith energy by all accounts, so I wonder if a practitioner of a more Faith-based tradition would be distinct enough to be left separate by the mostly draft-based Council.

I mean, LTW seems to have a lot more faith mixed into his style, but he's not an actual priest of his people (near as I could tell by the exchange with Shaggy). 

[wyltok]

I think I would describe the Knights of the Cross more as prophets or judges than as saints. If I were to pick someone as a saint, I would probably suggest Malcolm Dresden, since he did the whole intercession thing, and possibly Harry during Ghost Story (he may not have been on a mission from God, but he was on a mission from Uriel. That should count, no?).

[Griffyn612]

I'm mostly with Groinkick on this one.  Saints are most likely people with an aptitude for faith magic, just as Harry has an aptitude for elemental magic.  It's most likely not one or the other; it's probably conditioning.

The closest we've probably seen on-page to a Saint would be Charity.  She set aside her power after the Sirio thing, but that hammer blow to the door at Arctis Tor was more than just strength and iron.  I think she put her faith in a higher power, and that power acted through her latent talent (like Michael's faith protection, only offensive).

If Molly had been more devout, her talent might have lent herself to being a faith caster that could do enough good to be considered a saint.

[dspringer1]

I suspect Saints are something comparable to the Knights of the Cross -- although I suspect the Old Gods had their own versions of the same.      Priests who wield great divine power.   Although an argument can be made that demigods are the pre-Christian equivalent of a Saint. 

[Griffyn612]

I suspect Saints are something comparable to the Knights of the Cross -- although I suspect the Old Gods had their own versions of the same.      Priests who wield great divine power.   Although an argument can be made that demigods are the pre-Christian equivalent of a Saint.

I picture saints being very different from demi-gods.  Saints would be more like high priests of the temple.  Demi-gods are usually scions.

[ClintACK]

I would have said that a holy person *becomes* a Saint after death.

A Saint is a deceased human who you pray to, asking them to intercede on your behalf with the big G, as someone who was once human and interested in the kind of difficulty you're having.

Example: Michael might have said a prayer to St. George before he took on Siriothrax.


So... consider Murphy's Dad.  He's dead.  He heads up an office somewhere in the transition between our world and the next.  He has an angel standing guard at the door.  He works for Uriel.

WAG of all WAGs:  Murphy's Dad might be the patron saint of cops and others trying to keep people safe from the things that go bump in the night.

[groinkick]

I would have said that a holy person *becomes* a Saint after death.

A Saint is a deceased human who you pray to, asking them to intercede on your behalf with the big G, as someone who was once human and interested in the kind of difficulty you're having.

Example: Michael might have said a prayer to St. George before he took on Siriothrax.


So... consider Murphy's Dad.  He's dead.  He heads up an office somewhere in the transition between our world and the next.  He has an angel standing guard at the door.  He works for Uriel.

WAG of all WAGs:  Murphy's Dad might be the patron saint of cops and others trying to keep people safe from the things that go bump in the night.

That's more along the lines of traditional meaning but the one thing that stands out is that (I think) Jim said that when the Black Court was being attacked by humans there were KoTC, wizards, other vampire courts, and even some Saints.  I might be remembering it wrong but I thought it was something like that.

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I'm mostly with Groinkick on this one.  Saints are most likely people with an aptitude for faith magic, just as Harry has an aptitude for elemental magic.  It's most likely not one or the other; it's probably conditioning.

The closest we've probably seen on-page to a Saint would be Charity.  She set aside her power after the Sirio thing, but that hammer blow to the door at Arctis Tor was more than just strength and iron.  I think she put her faith in a higher power, and that power acted through her latent talent (like Michael's faith protection, only offensive).

If Molly had been more devout, her talent might have lent herself to being a faith caster that could do enough good to be considered a saint.

Cool.  Added an option for Saint as a Faith-based practitioner comparable to a Wizard.  That cover it?

I would have said that a holy person *becomes* a Saint after death.

A Saint is a deceased human who you pray to, asking them to intercede on your behalf with the big G, as someone who was once human and interested in the kind of difficulty you're having.

Example: Michael might have said a prayer to St. George before he took on Siriothrax.


So... consider Murphy's Dad.  He's dead.  He heads up an office somewhere in the transition between our world and the next.  He has an angel standing guard at the door.  He works for Uriel.

WAG of all WAGs:  Murphy's Dad might be the patron saint of cops and others trying to keep people safe from the things that go bump in the night.

Capt Jack is a great idea and one Id overlooked (Added).  He definitely fits the classic/popular definition of a Saint the best (though I have a feeling he'd strongly disagree with the notion, but so would Harry).  And while deceased he still appears to have some interaction with the Mortal World (as sanctioned by Heaven, one assumes) which might get around the WOJ's that describe them as active players.

That's more along the lines of traditional meaning but the one thing that stands out is that (I think) Jim said that when the Black Court was being attacked by humans there were KoTC, wizards, other vampire courts, and even some Saints.  I might be remembering it wrong but I thought it was something like that.

Yup, I included those WOJ's in the OP for Reference. 

[ClintACK]

Given that this is the DV, the real answer is probably "All of the Above".

That's more along the lines of traditional meaning but the one thing that stands out is that (I think) Jim said that when the Black Court was being attacked by humans there were KoTC, wizards, other vampire courts, and even some Saints.  I might be remembering it wrong but I thought it was something like that.

Yeah.  We've seen that faith is a source of magical power -- from the fake Shroud of Turin to Michael's prayers.  I'd imagine there are people with a bit more magical training who have learned how to channel faith magic specifically.  (I remember there being some hints of that in one of the White Council meetings -- maybe the one at the end of Turn Coat?)

I'm picturing a priest whipping a congregation up into a pitchfork-and-torches kill-the-vampire mob, marching at the front with a sacred relic, and channeling the faith of the crowd into magic spells.

Perhaps something like that is what HD/JB meant in the Black Court quote.

So, yeah, what Griffin said. 

[Mira]

I'm mostly with Groinkick on this one.  Saints are most likely people with an aptitude for faith magic, just as Harry has an aptitude for elemental magic.  It's most likely not one or the other; it's probably conditioning.

But Harry does have an aptitude for faith magic.  He has faith in his magic, he often speaks of it,  that is why he pulled it
out when Bianca attacked him in Storm Front, and it was effective..

Storm Front, page 103-104 hardback

"Back," I said. taking a step toward it myself.  The pentacle began to burn with a cold, clear light of applied will and belief--my faith, if you will, that it could turn a monster aside.

Again in Skin Game when he tossed the hilt of Fid in the direction of Charity and Butters, it was a leap of faith that it would do some good. 

So Harry has strong faith, not conventional in the way many think of but he has it.. Does that make him a saint? In the television series, The Young Pope, saints are described in having, paraphrasing now,  "a faith in God so strong that they turn to prayer to fix something before they turn to other humans.."  That sort of fits Harry, his faith in his magic and what he can do with it is usually so strong that he doesn't turn to his friends who might be able to help him.

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But Harry does have an aptitude for faith magic.  He has faith in his magic, he often speaks of it,  that is why he pulled it
out when Bianca attacked him in Storm Front, and it was effective..

Storm Front, page 103-104 hardback

Again in Skin Game when he tossed the hilt of Fid in the direction of Charity and Butters, it was a leap of faith that it would do some good. 

So Harry has strong faith, not conventional in the way many think of but he has it.. Does that make him a saint? In the television series, The Young Pope, saints are described in having, paraphrasing now,  "a faith in God so strong that they turn to prayer to fix something before they turn to other humans.."  That sort of fits Harry, his faith in his magic and what he can do with it is usually so strong that he doesn't turn to his friends who might be able to help him.

I dont know, I think that just sounds too easy, too much like the Old "For a man with only a Hammer, everything is a Nail."  Harry believes in his own Magic enough to summon Faith-glow from his pentacle, but when he turns to his magic to solve a problem it's not an act of Faith, it's just a man grasping a tool for a goal. 

Harry /has/ made more prominent Acts of Faith, and Id say gotten noticed because of them, but I think they've been relatively rare.