On Nemesis and Why it can't / doesn't infect Humans

[Mira]

I believe that nemesis doesnt affect humans because it cant hurt them.  What it does is remove all obligations from the fey. without those obligations the fey so far have gone insane.  good bad or indifferent the fey only act because of their obligations to what ever group they are with.  with that removed they completely loose it.

But are the Knights of the Courts immune?  They are mortal, yes, but can the mantle be affected? 

[Quantus]

Okay, I've long held the belief that nemesis cannot infect a human.  Though why exactly I don't know.  I personally think it has to do with the mutable nature of mankind's nature.  I think Nemesis allows one to change one's nature, and since mankind already can, there really isn't any point to infection.

I agree with your general conclusion, though I think I have a slightly different direction on the Why of it.  I agree that Nemesis allows a being to Change, which is redundant in the case of Mortals.  But I think that is the clue: Mortal's ability to Change themselves (and reality itself) is granted by their Soul.  As "part-mortals", all Fae would theoretically have once had a Soul (as changelings) or otherwise be descended from some mortal creature that had them.  So Im thinking that Nemesis can Nemfect Fae because they have, for lack of a better term, an un-occupied "Soul Slot", a vestigial thing that Nemesis can co-opt for it's own control.  In the case of a Mortal, said mortal would first need to adequately destroy their own soul (through a series of terrible free will Choices) before Nemesis has enough "space" to move in and start nudging (and eventually dominating) the mortal. 

Another bit of evidence that suggests to me that nemesis cannot infect mankind is this ....

If it could, why would it not infect a Wizard, and have them simply summon outsider after outsider after outsider into reality until there is an overwhelming force?

My best guess is Tactics and Power Requirements.  Per the explanation of the giant Pentacles in SmF, that kind of summoning takes proportion Power to create a Doorway big enough.  So even if you have a Nemfected Mortal, there is still a hard limit on the scope of what that mortal would be capable of Summoning (they'd have to go out and find other Power Sources to drive larger Summoning).  At that point, it becomes tactically more valuable to keep any and all activity (and assets) a secret; they could have each new operative start summoning what they can individually but long-term all that does is attract attention and get said assets killed. 

That all being said, another reasonable tactic might be to get a single Nemfected practitioner, and then collect a ton of smaller talents and strip them of their power to consolidate it into a single user capable of summoning far greater entities.  But somebody would notice a concerted effort to kidnap a bunch of low-level talents, right?  Oh, wait...

[knnn]

Personally, I think that mortals have some "antibodies" to Nemsis in the form of Free Will (which is why Heaven protects that above all), but Nemesis corruption can still affect humans in the form of the "black magic corruption" wizards get by (e.g.) killing with magic.

Evidence (granted all circumstantial):

1) In Cold Days, Lily describes Harry's first three cases as the work of Nemesis.   Granted, she may have been tricked by Maeve (how did she learn of those specific instances anyway?), but assuming we take her at face value, that means two things:

-  Mortals can be influenced.

- Things we (and apparently Harry and Morgan) assumed were "merely" black magic taint were actually Nemesis.   Specifically, we've seen Harry's feelings and impressions while using one of the belts.   In his opinion, if he had killed while under it's influence he would have never been able to make it back.

2) The old "description of blackstaff healing reminds one of Mordite" comparison.

3) Of the seven Laws of Magic, 5 of them have to do with "black magic".   If we assume that Nemesis==Black Magic, and further assume (yes, this is a stretch) that time magic is prohibited because of it's obvious use against Demonreach then all 7 Laws become "anti-nemesis" laws.

4) The flashback scene in Ghost Story can be read to imply that HHWB's goal in taunting Harry was to get him to go back and kill Justin (with Black Magic).   If we assume that "starborn" is a two-edged sword (i.e. useful to Outsiders as well), HHWB might well have been trying to tempt Harry to Nemesis corruption.

5) Finally, there's my whole "(mortal) magic comes from Outsiders/Azatoth" WAG, where the similarities between "real" magic (Harry needs to believe that it works) and faith magic suggest common "divine"  (but per Bob "different wavelength") origin.   Combine this with the fact that only mortals can summon Outsiders and that their magic doesn't work well on them and you possible get an "Outsider God" as the possible source of magic.

Why Azathoth?   Consider the following WoJ (Dragoncon 2010)

[On magic affecting technology] "It's something that changes over time.   It's a living growing force.  It's not really aware, nothing like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who are using it."

**IF** Jim is hinting at the source of (mortal) magic, then this is some sort of mindless divine power.   To me this sounds a little bit like:

"the the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things"

.....

Ok, I started rambling.   Nevermind, carry on.

[Quantus]

Why Azathoth?   Consider the following WoJ (Dragoncon 2010)

[On magic affecting technology] "It's something that changes over time.   It's a living growing force.  It's not really aware, nothing like that, but it is something that changes along with the people who are using it."

**IF** Jim is hinting at the source of (mortal) magic, then this is some sort of mindless divine power.   To me this sounds a little bit like:


.....

Ok, I started rambling.   Nevermind, carry on.

Id argue that the description there could apply to basically /any/ of the vaguely personified abstract concepts.  Or, for that matter physical things like, I dunno...The Ocean?

[knnn]

Id argue that the description there could apply to basically /any/ of the vaguely personified abstract concepts.  Or, for that matter physical things like, I dunno...The Ocean?

Well the ocean can't really be the source of mortal magic (e.g. the way TWG is the source of Michael's faith magic), so that wouldn't quite fit the WAG but in general, sure.

[Quantus]

Well the ocean can't really be the source of mortal magic (e.g. the way TWG is the source of Michael's faith magic), so that wouldn't quite fit the WAG but in general, sure.

True I suppose.  Though ::tinfoil hat ON::  Water Grounds Magic, and "All Life Came from the Ocean" sooo may the Spirit of the Ocean might qualify as the Source of All Magic in the World as an extension of being the Source of Life (or arguably 1/2 along with the Sun). 

But in general I just mean that the WOJ description seems a really non-specific description that would apply any significant Power/Energy/Natural Force

[knnn]

But in general I just mean that the WOJ description seems a really non-specific description that would apply any significant Power/Energy/Natural Force

Oh, I don't disagree, which is why I had "IF" in all caps.   Note that Jim has said elsewhere that he wanted Harry's magic to be like a plumbing/engineering (as opposed to shamanistic). 

That said, IF he was hinting at a divine source, Azathoth would be my personal choice.

[Quantus]

Oh, I don't disagree, which is why I had "IF" in all caps.   Note that Jim has said elsewhere that he wanted Harry's magic to be like a plumbing/engineering (as opposed to shamanistic). 

That said, IF he was hinting at a divine source, Azathoth would be my personal choice.

That would be an interesting twist, though Im not sure how I feel about the idea that all magic, and by extension the energy of Life Itself, were to come from Outside or from anything quite that madness-inducing. 

It also sounds like he might be on a larger scale than Id expect a much more local Source of Earthly Magic to be; If Im getting this right from wikipedia he's more or less the cosmic center of what TDF calls the "Outside", yes?  I get the impression that the Outside (and thus Outsiders) are outside the branching of the Multiverse, whereas Id picture the Source of Earth Magic to be a local/universal thing more specific to the actual Life present on the planet.   Thoughts?

[Arjan]

Nemesis is a spiritual infection so I think everything with nature/spirit can in principle be infected. That apparently includes even a powerful object like the athame.

I think Peabody was infected.

[knnn]

That would be an interesting twist, though I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that all magic, and by extension the energy of Life Itself, were to come from Outside or from anything quite that madness-inducing. 

<shrug>

It's not an uncommon trope that when you have enough Chaos you can occasionally randomly eventually get bubbles of Order.   They might even be considered "temporary" from a "billions of years" perspective.   The first chapter of Brust's "To Reign in Hell" is a good example of that.

(click to show/hide)

Primordial ooze. Flux. Chaos. Cacoastrum.

The essential of the universe, in all its myriad forms and shapes. Essence.

Any and all combinations of form and shape exist within this essence. Eventually, of course, cacoastrum may deny itself. Order within chaos.

How many times is order created? The question has no meaning. A tree falls in the forest, and the universe hears it. Order doesn't last; cacoastrum will out.

The flux creates the essence of order, which is illiaster, which was the staff of life long before bread had the privilege. It can't last, however. Conscious? Sentient? Self-aware? Perhaps these things exist for a timeless instant, only to be lost again before they can begin to understand. They may have shape; they may have the seeds of thoughts—none of this matters. One of them may be a unicorn, another a greyish stone of unknown properties, still another a girl-child with big brown eyes who vanishes before she really appears. It doesn't matter.

But let us give to one of these forms something new. Let us give it, for the sake of argument, an instinct to survive. Ah! Now the game is different, you see.

So this form resists, and strives to hold itself together. And as it strives, cacoastrum and illiaster produce more illiaster, and consciousness produces more consciousness, and now there are two.

The two of them strive; and then they find that they can communicate, and time means something now. And space, as well.

As they work together, to hold onto themselves, a third one appears. They find that they can bend the cacoastrum to their will, and force shape upon it, and command it to hold, for a while. They build walls at this place where the three of them are, and a top and a bottom.

Cacoastrum howls, almost as a living thing itself, and seeks entry. The three resist, and then there are four, then five, then six, then seven.

And the seven finish the walls, and the top, and the bottom and for a moment, at last, there is peace from the storm.

whereas Id picture the Source of Earth Magic to be a local/universal thing more specific to the actual Life present on the planet.   Thoughts?

I would suggest that it has to be at least "local" to any place potentially accessible by Harry Dresden (i.e. the NN, Heaven/Hell, MM worlds,  the Moon).   To me, this me makes it feel general enough that the source for magic has to be something at least a bit multi-universal.

Somewhat related, there's also this WoJ (emphasis mine):

Everything revolves around /this/ earth, in the Dresden stories. But not necessarily around all (or even a majority of) the other earths that exist in the continuum of possibility created by free will. Other, parallel realities have other worlds playing a more central role, and some of them have earth in a nice quiet backwater, peaceful, relatively conflict free, and boring.

I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is  a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in.   One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders.   So one possible ending for the BAT is that  Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.

[Quantus]

<shrug>

It's not an uncommon trope that when you have enough Chaos you can occasionally randomly eventually get bubbles of Order.   They might even be considered "temporary" from a "billions of years" perspective.   

I have no real problem with the idea of Creation bubbling out of Chaos, more that on an aesthetic level I dislike the idea of that bubbling chaos being both a)the literal and direct animating source of all Life while also b)being a conscious malevolent entity of destruction and madness and despair and all the other things that Ive culturally been taught to associate with all lovecraftian deities. 

I would suggest that it has to be at least "local" to any place potentially accessible by Harry Dresden (i.e. the NN, Heaven/Hell, MM worlds,  the Moon).   To me, this me makes it feel general enough that the source for magic has to be something at least a bit multi-universal.

Somewhat related, there's also this WoJ (emphasis mine):

I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is  a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in.   One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders.   So one possible ending for the BAT is that  Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.

Let me back up, Sorry. I had a burried theory/assumption in that statement, so it didnt translate well. 

When I say "local" I meant local to that individual universe (including it's accociated NN), meaning there might be mirror versions in other universes.  This becomes an important distinction because I do not think that is true for Outsiders.   There is that line from CD about how the outsider seemed not bigger, but rather /deeper/ than things like Mab, a photograph vs a sculpture, and the WOJ that Outsiders are just Outsiders and only look different depending on what universe they are trying to get in.  If each universe is a single "disk" cross-section of giant a World Tree branching out in Time, then the idea is that the Outsiders are all the negative space between and around that branching tree of Creation.  And by extension that, unlike universe-level creatures, there is only one HWWB4 out there, and right now he's looking at Harry's Universe.

[knnn]

I have no real problem with the idea of Creation bubbling out of Chaos, more that on an aesthetic level I dislike the idea of that bubbling chaos being both a)the literal and direct animating source of all Life while also b)being a conscious malevolent entity of destruction and madness and despair and all the other things that Ive culturally been taught to associate with all lovecraftian deities. 

Azathoth isn't really malevolent.   He's the "mindless god".  It's just the he's so alien that any contact with him leads to madness.   Another example would how certain bacteria can grow and prosper in your body.   When you kill them (by taking antibiotics) it has nothing to do with malevolence. 

When I say "local" I meant local to that individual universe (including it's accociated NN), meaning there might be mirror versions in other universes.  This becomes an important distinction because I do not think that is true for Outsiders.   There is that line from CD about how the outsider seemed not bigger, but rather /deeper/ than things like Mab, a photograph vs a sculpture, and the WOJ that Outsiders are just Outsiders and only look different depending on what universe they are trying to get in.  If each universe is a single "disk" cross-section of giant a World Tree branching out in Time, then the idea is that the Outsiders are all the negative space between and around that branching tree of Creation.  And by extension that, unlike universe-level creatures, there is only one HWWB4 out there, and right now he's looking at Harry's Universe.

I have no problem with the idea that the whole multiverse is merely a single bubble in the Outside. 

Not quite sure what you're saying about HHWB.  The way I see it, either he's a minion -- one who can only manifest in one universe, or he's more along the lines of Uriel -- sees multiple universes at once.  I don't think this has been decided one way or the other.

[peregrine]

I don't think Earth can be "relatively conflict free" unless it is  a universe where the Outsiders are not trying to get in.   One possible reason for that is because in those universes there is no mortal magic on Earth and so nothing can summon Outsiders.   So one possible ending for the BAT is that  Harry permanently shuts off the world from the Outside at the cost of ending all mortal magic.

All it has to do is be a universe where Earth is not the focal point for the Outsider's invasion.  Maybe they are trying to storm through a planet in the Hyades with their own set of inhabitants rather than Humans on Earth.

[knnn]

All it has to do is be a universe where Earth is not the focal point for the Outsider's invasion.  Maybe they are trying to storm through a planet in the Hyades with their own set of inhabitants rather than Humans on Earth.

Sure, but you'd still have to explain why there are no mortals on that Earth summoning Outsiders.

[Quantus]

Not quite sure what you're saying about HHWB.  The way I see it, either he's a minion -- one who can only manifest in one universe, or he's more along the lines of Uriel -- sees multiple universes at once.  I don't think this has been decided one way or the other.

Theres a line from Cold Days when Harry forces HWWb4 to Name himself and gets a glimpse of the things Truth.  Harry described it as:

And this thing in my head, the thing I’d named Sharkface, was like him, a Walker, a peer. It was huge, powerful, and in a way utterly different from the kinds of power I had seen before. This thing wasn’t bigger than Mab. But it was horribly, unbearably deeper than her, like a photograph of a sculpture compared to the sculpture itself. It had power at its command that was beyond anything I had seen, beyond measure, beyond comprehension—just plain beyond.

The way I interpret that line is that Mab, like Harry and probably everyone else we've met save Uriel, is bound by the Multiverse, meaning she's a result of one specific branch and likely has Mirror versions.  Outsiders, as this theory goes, are "deeper" than Mab (compared to 2D vs 3D) because they are exist outside of the branching Time that fundamentally defines and limits things born within the Multiverse. 

I picture this as an existence similar to how I assume Uriel or any other 4+ dimensional beings would perceive the world. Also, while I dont know how they'd compare directly while in their native plane, I think that what Harry has faced have been limited in their ability to express Power in the Mortal world, just like the Denarians cannot bring their full Power to bear, rather only what the host can support.