How Harry would do the Dark Hallow in Changes wag

[LordDresden2]

The Erlking doesn't have free will, so it doesn't matter how smart he is or whether he knew the darkhallow was happening. He was summoned to lead the hunt in Chicago and had no choice but to do so, even if it means his death.

That doesn't necessarily follow.  Even if he has no choice but to lead the Hunt, he can presumably lead it away from ground zero as easily as he can toward it.  Maybe, in extremis, even lead it through Faerie to somewhere else.

[Quantus]

Yeah.  I'm just arguing with the idea that the Erlking must show up and stick his head through the noose, risking his death just because he lacks Free Will.

I get that's your argument, I just dont understand it.  Lacking Free Will just means that he cannot even conceive of changing his fundamental nature and so will never just decide that "Hunting is Boring" or that "Things deserve to Live" or some such.  But it doesnt make him a Bad Hunter, which (by his own description in Changes) he would be if he heedlessly charged into danger th3e way you describe.  With the exception of the Summoning itself, which is described as a sort of imposed OCD and requires that he appear, he is not compelled to do anything else.   

[peregrine]

By "arguing with" I mean "arguing against."  I agree with you.  I disagree with Cozarkian.

[Cozarkian]

I disagree slightly.  Lack of Free Will means he can't go against his nature.  It doesn't mean he has to do whatever anyone tells him to do.  Depending on what's going on, his sense of self preservation may overrule his job as leader of the Hunt.  He did after all throw the fight with Harry in Cold Days.

Also, he wasn't summoned to lead the hunt, he was specifically summoned NOT to lead the hunt.

He was able to throw the fight with Harry but he wasn't able to simply redirect or stop the hunt. And Harry used a ritual to call forth the Erlking as a leader of the hunt, it doesn't really matter what Harry's subjective intent was. Objectively, Harry knew that if the Erlking broke his circle there would be a hunt.

[Quantus]

By "arguing with" I mean "arguing against."  I agree with you.  I disagree with Cozarkian.

Sorry, my mistake 

He was able to throw the fight with Harry but he wasn't able to simply redirect or stop the hunt. And Harry used a ritual to call forth the Erlking as a leader of the hunt, it doesn't really matter what Harry's subjective intent was. Objectively, Harry knew that if the Erlking broke his circle there would be a hunt.

Not trying and not Able are wildly different.  He (and kringle, who might have actually been the one leading the hunt) NEEDED Harry to take it over, which is the whole reason they threw the fight; "redirecting or stopping the hunt" would have buggered that up entirely and negated the whole point of the subterfuge. 

Of course he was going to Hunt on Halloween if summoned to the Mortal World.  By the sound of CD he does that every year.  But being summoned doesnt force him to suddenly become a BAD Hunter, which this would be by his own definition. 

[Cozarkian]

Sorry, my mistake 
Not trying and not Able are wildly different.  He (and kringle, who might have actually been the one leading the hunt) NEEDED Harry to take it over, which is the whole reason they threw the fight; "redirecting or stopping the hunt" would have buggered that up entirely and negated the whole point of the subterfuge. 

Of course he was going to Hunt on Halloween if summoned to the Mortal World.  By the sound of CD he does that every year.  But being summoned doesnt force him to suddenly become a BAD Hunter, which this would be by his own definition.

The only possible reason they would need Harry to take over the hunt is if they were unable to go after the Outsiders on their own initiative.

Erlking was quite a good hunter in DB, he clearly knew something was going on because he knew Harry raised Sue, but he neither stopped the hunt nor left Chicago.
If he was simply not concerned by the darkhallow because it was only going to kill his entire hunting party but not him, that would make him a terrible Hunter. Again, this leads us to there was nothing he could do.

Or, alternatively, maybe he was doing something. Maybe he was chasing one of the other necromancers so Harry could stop Cowl.

[Quantus]

The only possible reason they would need Harry to take over the hunt is if they were unable to go after the Outsiders on their own initiative.

Erlking was quite a good hunter in DB, he clearly knew something was going on because he knew Harry raised Sue, but he neither stopped the hunt nor left Chicago.
If he was simply not concerned by the darkhallow because it was only going to kill his entire hunting party but not him, that would make him a terrible Hunter. Again, this leads us to there was nothing he could do.

Or, alternatively, maybe he was doing something. Maybe he was chasing one of the other necromancers so Harry could stop Cowl.

Indeed, which I believe is exactly what was happening.  They told harry that  “You are the leader of the Hunt.  What you wright with your power will grace each of us."  and then just after that Harry was able to shake the Psychic Attack of a Walker which freed them all from it at the same time, after which the Erlking gave him credit by shouting “Well-done, starborn!” Which I take to indicate that Starborn is the same "outsider power" Lash was talking about, and that the hunt could not safety Face off against an Outsider without a Starborn in Charge of the hunt and thus sharing the aegis of his protection.  Potential protection I should say, as it was not easy or automatic. 

[Rasins]

I wonder if the other members of the hunt took on any of Harry's "Starborn" power over outsiders-ness?

[Quantus]

I wonder if the other members of the hunt took on any of Harry's "Starborn" power over outsiders-ness?

I suspect so, though aside from the resistance above I couldnt say what they might be. 

I wonder if Harry can now Summon the Hunt on his own, having successfully Led it in the past. 

[Rasins]

I suspect so, though aside from the resistance above I couldnt say what they might be. 

I wonder if Harry can now Summon the Hunt on his own, having successfully Led it in the past.

I got the impression that once you were a leader of the hunt, you could.  It's just that the EK is the one who is known to do it all the time.

[Mira]

Indeed, which I believe is exactly what was happening.  They told harry that  “You are the leader of the Hunt.  What you wright with your power will grace each of us."  and then just after that Harry was able to shake the Psychic Attack of a Walker which freed them all from it at the same time, after which the Erlking gave him credit by shouting “Well-done, starborn!” Which I take to indicate that Starborn is the same "outsider power" Lash was talking about, and that the hunt could not safety Face off against an Outsider without a Starborn in Charge of the hunt and thus sharing the aegis of his protection.  Potential protection I should say, as it was not easy or automatic.

I am wondering if appearances are just a bit deceiving and can be unclear..  Given what was told to Harry by Kringle in Cold Days pages 505-506

" The whole Winter Knight thing," I said.  "It's made me stronger."  "True enough," he said.  "But not that much stronger," I said.  "The Erlking could have gotten out of the way of that shot."  "Really?" "You meant for me to have the Wild Hunt."  "No one can be given a power like the Wild Hunt, Dresden," Kringle said.  "He can only take it."  "Really?"  I said, as drily as I knew how.

Then Kringle goes on to say..

That got a laugh from Kringle.  "You have guts and will, mortal.  It had to be shown, or the Hunt would never have accepted you."  "Maybe I'll just punch you out whenever I feel like it then," I said.  "Maybe you'll try," Kringle replied amiably.  He looked out at the lightening sky and let out a satisfied breath.  "It was Halloween, Dresden.  You put on a mask for a time. That's all."  He looked directly at me and said, "Many mantles are worn--or discarded---on Halloween night, wizard.

So I take all of the above to mean that the ducks had to be exactly in the right row, and on Halloween for Harry to take over.  So just because Harry was able to take over the Hunt that once, doesn't mean he can do it anytime he wants to.

[Quantus]

I am wondering if appearances are just a bit deceiving and can be unclear..  Given what was told to Harry by Kringle in Cold Days pages 505-506

Then Kringle goes on to say..So I take all of the above to mean that the ducks had to be exactly in the right row, and on Halloween for Harry to take over.  So just because Harry was able to take over the Hunt that once, doesn't mean he can do it anytime he wants to.

I just took all that to mean that /the Hunt/ (which seems to be at least quasi-sentient, not unlike the Lady Mantles) requires that a new leader defeat an old, or otherwise Prove his or her Strength.  The fact that both Erl and Kringle threw the fight to enure that Harry accomplished it for their own ends (ie an Outsider Hunt) might not factor into it.  Both Erl and Kringle (and others per WOJ, the actual Odin being another historic example) can call up the Hunt more or less whenever they choose (dont know if it requires certain days or something additional), so theoretically he might now qualify, since despite the thrown fight the Hunt accepted him as a Leader.

At least, that's the theory

[Rasins]

I am wondering if appearances are just a bit deceiving and can be unclear..  Given what was told to Harry by Kringle in Cold Days pages 505-506

Then Kringle goes on to say..So I take all of the above to mean that the ducks had to be exactly in the right row, and on Halloween for Harry to take over.  So just because Harry was able to take over the Hunt that once, doesn't mean he can do it anytime he wants to.

I agree with this.  However, I think that because he led it once, he can again. It may take the EK to raise the hunt, but once it's raised, Harry can probably take it over, like Kringle.

[Quantus]

I agree with this.  However, I think that because he led it once, he can again. It may take the EK to raise the hunt, but once it's raised, Harry can probably take it over, like Kringle.

The Erlking isnt the only one that can summon the Hunt, Kringle can do it alone, as can any number of others (See WOj below). 

I think it's more the opposite, that Harry can summon it himself by virtue of having Led it once, but He'd never stand the chance to taking it from either Erl or Kringle unless they wanted him to do so, and they could take it from him basically any time they wanted. 

The ErlKing* (aka Herne the Hunter or Cern, the Celtic Horned God) and the Wild Hunt are part of the celtic isle mythology...the point IS the hunt.  People are the foxes. (The Erlking in actual mythology is a german baddie that Jim apparently appropriated for Herne.)

Actually, in the Dresden universe, the Wild Hunt can be led by a number of beings--INCLUDING Cern, but not exclusive to him.    The Erlking (who isn't Cern) is a being of Faerie who is in Mab's weight division, if not her equal.  I believe he is identified as the ruler of the goblins--which should not necessarily be equated with Tolkeinesque/Gygaxesque goblins.

Jim

[Rasins]

So, you gotta wonder, is the Erlking PART of the Wild hunt?  So, if Harry did call up the hunt, would the EK automagically come with it?