Nemesis is different

[Rasins]

I wonder though, if someone was to start a belief and somehow made it flourish, that there was a being that could totally wipe out Outsiders, if that being were to attempt it, the Outsiders would just "invent" another opponent that could withstand this new outsider-bane.

This.  Jim is creating something that COULD be believed and bring it into existence in the never-never.

[Quantus]

This.  Jim is creating something that COULD be believed and bring it into existence in the never-never.

This.  Jim is creating something that COULD be believed and bring it into existence in the never-never.

Im still really confused, it looks like you're using your own assumption as the justification for that very assumption?

[Rasins]

I don't know ...

Jim is doing a pretty good job of it now.

?

I was answering your question.  I thought you were asking for clarification on my statement [below]

I wonder though, if someone was to start a belief and somehow made it flourish, that there was a being that could totally wipe out Outsiders, if that being were to attempt it, the Outsiders would just "invent" another opponent that could withstand this new outsider-bane.

Kind of like the idea that a super-hero has to have a super-villain to fight against.  Otherwise there is no need for them, really.

[Quantus]

?


I was answering your question.  I thought you were asking for clarification on my statement [below]

I was, the clarification just didnt clarify.  As far as I could tell You proposed that it could be possible in-world for them to Create a being out of nothing but popular belief that was Powerful enough to defeat All the Outsiders, All on it's Own.  I replied by saying it was an interesting line of thought, but that I thought that the Power Level you were describing was so absolutely Enormous that I didnt think it could just come from Nowhere.  You replied with "Jim's Doing it" without explaining why/how you thought that was the case, then posted your initial theory as your clarification of that same exact Theory.  Repetition is not Elaboration

[Rasins]

I was, the clarification just didnt clarify.  As far as I could tell You proposed that it could be possible in-world for them to Create a being out of nothing but popular belief that was Powerful enough to defeat All the Outsiders, All on it's Own.  I replied by saying it was an interesting line of thought, but that I thought that the Power Level you were describing was so absolutely Enormous that I didnt think it could just come from Nowhere.  You replied with "Jim's Doing it" without explaining why/how you thought that was the case, then posted your initial theory as your clarification of that same exact Theory.  Repetition is not Elaboration

Ah ...

Where I'm coming from is this ...

Odin does not exist.  I'll grant you that people believe he exists, but he doesn't.  If for no other purposes than this discussion let's agree that Odin does not exist.

But LOTS of people BELIEVE he does.  Because of this, somewhere out in the never-never Odin DOES exist.  That being the case, then Odin does have the powers assigned to him.

Now, Belief in Odin started a LONG time ago.  To get the kind of metaphysical oomph needed to BE Odin, it would take a LOT of belief.

What I'm saying is that Jim's stories could be like those early tales of the All-Father.  Over time, his stories will pass into myth and legend, but the Belief that his stories bring could create something "out there", and because of the belief, it WILL have the power to defeat the Outsiders.

To give another example, there is an anime of Naratu (?), or was it Goku?

Anyway, supposedly this being can "unmake" anything.  Anything at all. 

Now if there was enough belief in this being, it would become in the never-never and eventually actually have the power to unmake ANYTHING, including outsiders.

ls that any better?

[Quantus]

Ah ...

Where I'm coming from is this ...

Odin does not exist.  I'll grant you that people believe he exists, but he doesn't.  If for no other purposes than this discussion let's agree that Odin does not exist.

But LOTS of people BELIEVE he does.  Because of this, somewhere out in the never-never Odin DOES exist.  That being the case, then Odin does have the powers assigned to him.

Now, Belief in Odin started a LONG time ago.  To get the kind of metaphysical oomph needed to BE Odin, it would take a LOT of belief.

What I'm saying is that Jim's stories could be like those early tales of the All-Father.  Over time, his stories will pass into myth and legend, but the Belief that his stories bring could create something "out there", and because of the belief, it WILL have the power to defeat the Outsiders.

To give another example, there is an anime of Naratu (?), or was it Goku?

Anyway, supposedly this being can "unmake" anything.  Anything at all. 

Now if there was enough belief in this being, it would become in the never-never and eventually actually have the power to unmake ANYTHING, including outsiders.

ls that any better?

Much! Sorry for me being dense.

OK, to the meat:  I see your thinking and it's sound, but I see the underlying mechanism as being different.  I dont think the Belief and/or characterization is going to create a whole new entity.  Rather I think it would create a sympathetic connection that would allow some existing entity to tap into it.  Maybe just from the depth of the the NN, likely from the Other Side of Oblivion (and I dont know if those two are mutually exclusive).   

That being said, according to Harry in Day One (the new Butters Short) BOTH of our described mechanisms are possibilities.  Given that I just expect that you'd waste/use up a lot more Power creating one from scratch than if you found something pre-existing and willing to undergo the Make-over. 

And separately, I dont actually think that there Exist enough Power in any one Universe to actually Destroy the Outsiders as a whole (which by my current theorycraft actually transcend the Multiverse).  At best they might be able to Seal off that particular Universe from further Outsider hostilities, but I then have to ask "If it were Possible, why didnt the last group do That instead of making a pair of Fae Courts?"

[Rasins]

Much! Sorry for me being dense.

OK, to the meat:  I see your thinking and it's sound, but I see the underlying mechanism as being different.  I dont think the Belief and/or characterization is going to create a whole new entity.  Rather I think it would create a sympathetic connection that would allow some existing entity to tap into it.  Maybe just from the depth of the the NN, likely from the Other Side of Oblivion (and I dont know if those two are mutually exclusive).   

That being said, according to Harry in Day One (the new Butters Short) BOTH of our described mechanisms are possibilities.  Given that I just expect that you'd waste/use up a lot more Power creating one from scratch than if you found something pre-existing and willing to undergo the Make-over. 

And separately, I dont actually think that there Exist enough Power in any one Universe to actually Destroy the Outsiders as a whole (which by my current theorycraft actually transcend the Multiverse).  At best they might be able to Seal off that particular Universe from further Outsider hostilities, but I then have to ask "If it were Possible, why didnt the last group do That instead of making a pair of Fae Courts?"

Ignorance to the possibility.

Intellictus has it's limits as demonstrated by Demonreach.  If Demonreach can be limited by it's geographic location, why not have someone like Uriel be limited by his reality?  By Reality as it is separate from the outside.

[Quantus]

Ignorance to the possibility.

Intellictus has it's limits as demonstrated by Demonreach.  If Demonreach can be limited by it's geographic location, why not have someone like Uriel be limited by his reality?  By Reality as it is separate from the outside.

Im not talking about the limits of Intellectus, Im saying that if it were possible to Seal of the Outside entirely, wouldnt that be the logical starting point before you are forced to design an absurdly complex and surprisingly fragile system to facilitate a NeverEnding War?  That's just logic, and barely complex enough to even be called that. 

[Rasins]

Im not talking about the limits of Intellectus, Im saying that if it were possible to Seal of the Outside entirely, wouldnt that be the logical starting point before you are forced to design an absurdly complex and surprisingly fragile system to facilitate a NeverEnding War?  That's just logic, and barely complex enough to even be called that.

Not if the Outer Gates existed from the very beginning.  It's entirely possible that those who defend the gates simply don't believe that they can be permanently sealed.  Or maybe they don't want to.  Having a purpose is a good thing.

[Quantus]

Not if the Outer Gates existed from the very beginning.  It's entirely possible that those who defend the gates simply don't believe that they can be permanently sealed.  Or maybe they don't want to.  Having a purpose is a good thing.

If The Gates existed from the Very beginning, Id agree with them I think.  At that point we're talking about something that is part of the very fundamental design of Reality Itself, and sealing it might be like plugging a Safety Relief Valve. 

Considering they'd be doing the designing after accepting that their role in things was ending, I doubt they'd be trying to Hang on to a purpose to the detriment of the Universe. 

[Rasins]

If The Gates existed from the Very beginning, Id agree with them I think.  At that point we're talking about something that is part of the very fundamental design of Reality Itself, and sealing it might be like plugging a Safety Relief Valve. 

Considering they'd be doing the designing after accepting that their role in things was ending, I doubt they'd be trying to Hang on to a purpose to the detriment of the Universe.

What makes you think things are ending?

[Quantus]

What makes you think things are ending?

/Were/ ending, I was talking about the decline of the previous Gate Guardians that led to the creation of the Sidhe Courts, per this WOJ

2015 DragonCon
You've previously said that the Sidhe and Mab came from origins like Toot Toot and kind of took on responsibility and grew.  You've also said that every single Fae have come from mortal origins like changelings and Scions and stuff.  Could you reconcile these two apparently contradictory origins?

I could but I won't *sing song* I'm not gonna tell you.*  The Sidhe were created for a reason though.  They were created specifically by certain agents who no longer had as much influence on the world as they once did.  I've hinted at that in some previous books and I'll leave it at that and I'll leave the rest to you.  That's perfectly enough material to come up with fan crack theory.  And fan crack theory is awesome.   I love reading fan crack theory.  I will go through occasionally and look at the crack theory boards, and it's like excellent.    And occasionally its like 'ooh that's actually better than what I had planned..."

[Rasins]

Ohhhh ..... Okay.  Gotcha

[Zaphodess]

Im not talking about the limits of Intellectus, Im saying that if it were possible to Seal of the Outside entirely, wouldnt that be the logical starting point before you are forced to design an absurdly complex and surprisingly fragile system to facilitate a NeverEnding War?  That's just logic, and barely complex enough to even be called that.

Maybe the very act of creation was Sealing off the Outside - to the best of the Creators abilities. The Old Ones were actually not Sealed off outside of the Gates.

[Quantus]

Maybe the very act of creation was Sealing off the Outside - to the best of the Creators abilities. The Old Ones were actually not Sealed off outside of the Gates.

Precisely my thoughts.  If it was to the Best of the Creator's Abilities on Day 1 (no later than Day 7), I struggle to imagine that a group of ragtag quasi-mortals is going to do better.