Nemesis is different

[groinkick]

Something occurred to me that I found a little odd about Nemesis.  In the Oblivion war the idea is removing all the Names of the Old Ones, removing their connection to reality.  The more modern gods gained power from worship, praise, and generally the population believing in them.  In both cases these Beings gain power from knowledge of their existence.  Nemesis is the exact opposite though.  Harry is told that Nemesis kills anyone with knowledge of it's existence.  Isn't that a little strange?  What is it that causes this difference?

I had a couple ideas:

1.  Nemesis is somehow the opposite, and gains power from lack of knowledge of it's existence.  Can't explain why it would work like this.  Maybe it's latched on to people's belief in the unknown, and their fear of it.  So it's powered by being unknown.

2.  Nemesis is in fact a mortal wizard.  I actually think this is possible.  The Old Ones have been around since like forever, so have the Outsiders.  Nemesis in my opinion (unless there are WoJ, or in book info I don't remember) a mystery.  Do we know how long it's actually been in play?  It might only have been around for fifty years, or a few hundred, or a thousand.  Even if it's longer than a thousand years, a dark wizard can probably find ways to extend their lives similar to Kemmler's practices, or simply by obtaining a Mantle that keeps them alive.  If this is the case then Nemesis can really break the rules effectively, and that's why people like Mab are so terrified by it.  A wizard doesn't have to play by the same rules, and if said wizard has obtained some really dark power they can do some major damage.  If this is the case I'd guess it's a really powerful, Starborn wizard that's gone full dark side.

What do you think?

[Quantus]

My understanding of both those things was slightly different, but it comes down to the Idea that Oblivion is still "Inside".  The Oblivion War mechanism is not in itself about gaining power (at least not directly) but rather about having an anchor to the Mortal World; with any mortals with the awareness, they were cut loose (theoretically with their current Power intact) and would be left adrift with no way to affect the Mortal World.  This would be separate from however they amassed their Power in the first place (Faith-systems seem to be one, but more violent ways like the Darkhallow exist too).  But I see Oblivion as part of the NN, just a part that is unreachable because it does not "resonate" with any part of the Mortal World at all, thus it is impossible to reach by Way, some sort of infinity endless doldrum. 

Nemesis and the Outsiders, by contrast, are facing a different obstacle in The Outer Gates.  They are trying to Get Inside (of which Oblivion would be the worst possible thing that would still qualify), and unless they get past Rashid they have to be summoned specifically by a Mortal.  But given The Sleepers as introduced directly in Cold Case, and their current prison, I have doubts that they'd be subject to the same sort of Anchor requirement; theirs isnt an issue of getting to the Mortal Worlds from teh NN, its to get to the World as a whole from Outside, and once they make it inside I dont think they require the same anchor to Mortal Consciousness that a NN spirit/godling/etc does.  But I have nothing but abstract conjecture to support that. 


Also something I cant escape:  From a purely Doyistic perspective, since I expect The Outsider war and the Outer Gates to take center stage on the BAT, and we were given the explanation of the true Oblivion war specifically because JB didnt expect it to come up, I dont think the Oblivion War is going to have much relevance to Nemesis.  But that's not a good way to enjoy crack-theory, so ignor that entirely please

[Snark Knight]

But given The Sleepers as introduced directly in Cold Case, and their current prison, I have doubts that they'd be subject to the same sort of Anchor requirement; theirs isnt an issue of getting to the Mortal Worlds from teh NN, its to get to the World as a whole from Outside, and once they make it inside I dont think they require the same anchor to Mortal Consciousness that a NN spirit/godling/etc does.  But I have nothing but abstract conjecture to support that.

As I understand it, the Outsiders are the Sleepers' minions, cut off from their rulers and trying to get back to them (and maybe, specifically, to wake them up?).

I'm not sure whether beings kicked out of the world by the Archive deleting the last awareness of their existence go to a NN pocket dimension, go Outside and join the original Sleeper loyalists for the sake of common cause, or end up 'asleep' in not-particularly-special parts of the NN (like Harry tried to explain to Charity in PG that a lot of the pagan gods that humanity still has awareness of were real, but for practical purposes inactive due to timey-wimey reasons).

[Quantus]

As I understand it, the Outsiders are the Sleepers' minions, cut off from their rulers and trying to get back to them (and maybe, specifically, to wake them up?).

That's more or less my understanding as well, with the caveat that I think there are still Sleeper contemporaries ("Old Ones"?) in the Outside as well, so the Outside Forces arent leaderless or anything, just missing some of their ruling Number. 

I'm not sure whether beings kicked out of the world by the Archive deleting the last awareness of their existence go to a NN pocket dimension, go Outside and join the original Sleeper loyalists for the sake of common cause, or end up 'asleep' in not-particularly-special parts of the NN (like Harry tried to explain to Charity in PG that a lot of the pagan gods that humanity still has awareness of were real, but for practical purposes inactive due to timey-wimey reasons).

Im fairly confident (overconfident might be a better description ) that it's not Option #2

[Rasins]

I think the bottom line is that Nemesis is not dependent on mortal belief to exist or gain power.  It's power is from OUTSIDE, and therefore the Oblivion war would have no effect on it.

[Quantus]

I think the bottom line is that Nemesis is not dependent on mortal belief to exist or gain power.  It's power is from OUTSIDE, and therefore the Oblivion war would have no effect on it.

Agreed.  If Mortal memory were the only thing that kept them in Reality, then the secret war at The Outer Gates would make a lot less sense; I would think all that Power would be better spent waging the Oblivion War itself, and since it would then be fought by non-mortal Spirits, the obstacle of extreme information control that hampers the Ventators would go away. 

[Cozarkian]

Is this possible?:

The targets of the Oblivion War are Old Ones that are inside Reality (mostly in Demonreach). Once erased from mortal memory they disappear from Reality and are forced Outside. The Outsiders, therefore, are the victims of the Oblivion War trying to get back in.

[kazimmoinuddin]

What if nemesis is something that was once human, but went through some kind of Ascension ritual. Similar to the dark hollow, but instead of based in necromancy, it was based on outsiders or magical corruption. So it is not a being reaching in acting as a bridge, it is a bring reaching out acting as a bridge.

[Quantus]

What if nemesis is something that was once human, but went through some kind of Ascension ritual. Similar to the dark hollow, but instead of based in necromancy, it was based on outsiders or magical corruption. So it is not a being reaching in acting as a bridge, it is a bring reaching out acting as a bridge.

Sounds like my current theory for Dracula and the formation of the Black Court Drakul.  For that matter, sounds like my current theory for Drakul, just in reverse.

If Nemesis had an Origin as a "Really Real Mortal from the Real World" I kind of think it would all be over by now, as they'd have had the power to directly Summon all kinds of Outsider buddies. If it went down that way, what we see now is the result of the less preferred Plan B, where they failed in a more straightforward Invasion and have settled for a more drawn out chess-game.  The only thing counter to the idea that I can think of would be the Gatekeeper's role that seem pretty specific to keeping Nemesis from sneaking in; but maybe he's just on the lookout for more /like/ Nemesis, for contemporary 'sappers'

[Mira]

Sounds like my current theory for Dracula and the formation of the Black Court Drakul.  For that matter, sounds like my current theory for Drakul, just in reverse.

If Nemesis had an Origin as a "Really Real Mortal from the Real World" I kind of think it would all be over by now, as they'd have had the power to directly Summon all kinds of Outsider buddies. If it went down that way, what we see now is the result of the less preferred Plan B, where they failed in a more straightforward Invasion and have settled for a more drawn out chess-game.  The only thing counter to the idea that I can think of would be the Gatekeeper's role that seem pretty specific to keeping Nemesis from sneaking in; but maybe he's just on the lookout for more /like/ Nemesis, for contemporary 'sappers'

I think of Nemesis more of like biological warfare,  it is more of an infection working from with in it's victims, directed I think from a master mind elsewhere, otherwise known as "the Adversary".  That is why it is so difficult to detect, there are no symptoms until it is too late.  It was detected in Lea, because apparently she understood the symptoms in time as did Mab and she was treated..  In Maeve's case her behavior was already outside of the norm so it wasn't recognized until it was too late.  In the case of Aurora, like some cancers it was pretty much asymptomatic until it was too late and the enemy almost succeeded.   The Adversary also uses the troops of Winter like Typhoid Marys, carrying the infection, Nemesis, though not showing symptoms themselves,  to it's targets, that is why Rashid and his big honking eye so vital, examining all the troops as they return..

[agrabes]

What if nemesis is something that was once human, but went through some kind of Ascension ritual. Similar to the dark hollow, but instead of based in necromancy, it was based on outsiders or magical corruption. So it is not a being reaching in acting as a bridge, it is a bring reaching out acting as a bridge.

Aren't the Outsiders described in the books as essentially beings from another dimension?  Not necessarily all evil, but just so strange and with completely different moral views and motivations that they seem evil to most people on the "in" side of the Outer Gates.  The idea that Outsiders were once part of the Earth or NeverNever seems contrary to what's been said "on screen".   It's definitely possible that the characters knowledge of Outsiders is wrong, but it just doesn't fit the theme of the story.  Everything in the story is setting up to be a battle for the Outer Gates, with the outsiders locked outside the Outer Gates, but wanting to get in.  If it was possible for people to slip across like that, it would undermine the entire premise of the story.

[Quantus]

Aren't the Outsiders described in the books as essentially beings from another dimension?  Not necessarily all evil, but just so strange and with completely different moral views and motivations that they seem evil to most people on the "in" side of the Outer Gates.  The idea that Outsiders were once part of the Earth or NeverNever seems contrary to what's been said "on screen".   It's definitely possible that the characters knowledge of Outsiders is wrong, but it just doesn't fit the theme of the story.  Everything in the story is setting up to be a battle for the Outer Gates, with the outsiders locked outside the Outer Gates, but wanting to get in.  If it was possible for people to slip across like that, it would undermine the entire premise of the story.

They are described more as Outside /all/ reality, outside the whole multiverse. Rather than a parallel dimension of the multiverse, "outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy." (WOJ, 2015)  They were there before Creation got going, and are trying to return things to that nice clean primordial state.   JB described them as the "generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd" (WOJ).  Also, just like Bram Stoker on the Black Court Vampires, HP Lovecraft's work are considered real works based on actual secret knowledge in the setting. 

[groinkick]

One reason I think Nemesis is connected to Wizards is because it reminds me a lot of like what Molly did to her boyfriend when she mind controlled him.  Not only did she control him but the end result of such control is insanity of the person being controlled.  The way it "spreads" is like a wizard creating a conduit between himself and the one they want to control.  That first link was the Athame, provided by Cowl and the Black Council.  Nemesis didn't just start controlling people, it needs a connection of some kind.  Again this sounds a lot like a wizard to me or group of them. 

The more I think about it the more I think that the Black Council is a group of spell casters that create a link between themselves and their target, and working together overpower the mind, and bend to their will...  Nemesis, the Adversary are actually a cult of dark wizards who's goal is to become the rulers of reality.  Perhaps Merlin created the White Council because of the Black Council.  That could mean the Black Council has existed before the White Council... 

[agrabes]

They are described more as Outside /all/ reality, outside the whole multiverse. Rather than a parallel dimension of the multiverse, "outsiders are the outsiders and they just sort of look different depending on which universe they are trying to get into and destroy." (WOJ, 2015)  They were there before Creation got going, and are trying to return things to that nice clean primordial state.   JB described them as the "generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles crowd" (WOJ).  Also, just like Bram Stoker on the Black Court Vampires, HP Lovecraft's work are considered real works based on actual secret knowledge in the setting.

Right, thanks that is a much better description of what I was trying to say.  Essentially, there are many, many monsters, evil beings, and dark gods of various mythologies that exist "inside" the Dresdenverse.  Separate from all those incredibly powerful evil or amoral beings are the Outsiders, who have their own desires to essentially destroy the universe.

My point in all that is that it doesn't really make sense that people could cross over back and forth between the "outside" and "inside".  A lot of people in this thread are suggesting that a human (or other being of the Dresdenverse) could somehow move beyond the Outer Gates or even go back and forth at will.  That doesn't really jive with what we know of the Outsiders.  If you could go back and forth that easily, it would have already been done en masse and the world would have been destroyed by the flood of Outsiders.  Maybe there is a plot twist that what we think are Outsiders influencing the real world are actually just a group of "Insiders" who have some kind of evil cult that want to open the gates and have no contact with or influence from the true Outsiders, but I think that would be kind of a lame plot twist personally.

[Quantus]

Right, thanks that is a much better description of what I was trying to say.  Essentially, there are many, many monsters, evil beings, and dark gods of various mythologies that exist "inside" the Dresdenverse.  Separate from all those incredibly powerful evil or amoral beings are the Outsiders, who have their own desires to essentially destroy the universe.

My point in all that is that it doesn't really make sense that people could cross over back and forth between the "outside" and "inside".  A lot of people in this thread are suggesting that a human (or other being of the Dresdenverse) could somehow move beyond the Outer Gates or even go back and forth at will.  That doesn't really jive with what we know of the Outsiders.  If you could go back and forth that easily, it would have already been done en masse and the world would have been destroyed by the flood of Outsiders.  Maybe there is a plot twist that what we think are Outsiders influencing the real world are actually just a group of "Insiders" who have some kind of evil cult that want to open the gates and have no contact with or influence from the true Outsiders, but I think that would be kind of a lame plot twist personally.

Well, the only known way to get past/around the Gates is to be Summoned from the Inside specifically by Mortal Magic, so in that sense there is passage.  I know some have speculated that the BAT will feature an actual Raid on the Outside for some reason, though every time Ive seen that mentioned it usually hinged on some as-yet-unseen power/significance of a Starborn to make it happen (or the Winter Knight, with Winter being the Anti-Outsider force). 

I think the instances in this topic were less about creatures being able to move back and forth with any sort of Freedom, and more the question of Which fence things are getting kicked over when consigned to "Oblivion".  In that sense I agree with you that The Outside is something separate, and something that would take much more specific circumstances to get past, in either direction.