Lara-Nemesis-Oblivion War

[Griffyn612]

||WAG Notice||

Unless you do, and it's call Black Magic and Going Warlock.  Or Dark Lord, in the case of a SC member.

So really, you only see Eb not getting Nemfected.  Which makes sense given who the Blackstaff used to belong to and who her real enemy is.

Makes you wonder if the Blackstaff can cure infection, and Eb possessing it doomed Maeve.

[Avernite]

Makes you wonder if the Blackstaff can cure infection, and Eb possessing it doomed Maeve.

I can totally see Harry beating himself up over that. "If only I had told Eb he could have helped cure Maeve, save Molly, and as an aside make Mab as good as adore me."

[Griffyn612]

I can totally see Harry beating himself up over that. "If only I had told Eb he could have helped cure Maeve, save Molly, and as an aside make Mab as good as adore me."

Don't get me wrong, I still think cooperation would have been required.  That was the only difference between Maeve and Lea.  One wanted to be cured.  But I'm sure Harry wishes he knew about it, or the prison option. 

[Aminar]

Makes you wonder if the Blackstaff can cure infection, and Eb possessing it doomed Maeve.

It doesn't really add up. Going Warlock is a strictly mortal thing. How would Sith have gone Warlock? Whatever taint Black Magic brings, it's a separate thing.

[Snark Knight]

You say her mother was murdered? Do you have a source for that?  As I recall, Ivy's mother was young(upper teens maybe twenty something?) and in love, when her mother was killed in a car crash, Ivy's mom flipped out over becoming the Archive and no longer having "her" life, that as soon as Ivy was born, she committed suicide.

The bit about Ivy's grandmother being murdered isn't confirmed by WOJ, it's just a widely held forum theory that the car "accident" was artificially induced, on the basis that the Archive's host would be a compulsively cautious driver and able to shield against any accident she had any warning of. People generally attribute the presumed hit to either one of the opposition factions in the Oblivion War trying to shuffle the deck to get a less effective coordinator for the Venatori Umbrorum, or Nic trying to lay groundwork for a plot against Ivy's mom on broadly similar terms to what they tried in SmF, but he miscalculated just how badly she'd take it (which would explain why Kincaid hates Nic, since he was friends with Ivy's mom).

Personally, I'm not entirely sold on the whole theory. It's definitely plausible, but so is the accident just being random.

[LordDresden2]

The author bit in Side Jobs certainly makes it sound like there is. It could be Lara's manipulation, but that's awfully disingenuous and unresolveable within the scope of the series. In short, the met answer proves you wrong.

In a way that disappoints me, because it leaves all the logical holes and contradictions in place.  If Lara had been making it up, or distorting it for Thomas, some of those problems would be gone.

[Quantus]

Makes you wonder if the Blackstaff can cure infection, and Eb possessing it doomed Maeve.

Possible, if it can do so for someone other than it's (presumably0 bonded wielder). And No, Maeve doomed herself by being a spoiled prat, but since the Staff needs informed consent from it's wielder I have to think it would have needed the same willing participation that Mab did.  In fact, Mab's ability to cure Nemfection might be directly related to the mechanism of the blackstaff.  Assuming of course that both the underlying theories are correct (that the Blackstaff is a Winter Artifact and that Black Magic Taint = Nemfection

It doesn't really add up. Going Warlock is a strictly mortal thing. How would Sith have gone Warlock? Whatever taint Black Magic brings, it's a separate thing.

The theory is that the supernatural element of Black Magic taint (the bit that the blackstaff protects Eb from, independent of the moral and psychological fallout) is in fact an expression of Nemfection.  There are various threads that pull together to make this theory hold some water, but the core idea is that since Magic is the very fundamental force of Creation and since Mortals are directly empowered like no other to affect the fabric of reality (via Soul and Free Will), so when then choose to twist that Power of Life and Creation is one of several specific Extreme ways, it creates a sort of 'crack' in reality that allows a bit of Nemesis Inside.  Do it often enough and the accumulated Taint/Nemfection would build up and eventually start influencing you more directly.  Since Fae have no Soul, they both do not have the same effect on reality with their magic (just like how they cannot actually Summon Outsiders) but similarly they dont have the same Cosmically protected Choice; so their Nemfections require outside vectors, but also can happen much more swiftly. 

[Aminar]

Possible, if it can do so for someone other than it's (presumably0 bonded wielder). And No, Maeve doomed herself by being a spoiled prat, but since the Staff needs informed consent from it's wielder I have to think it would have needed the same willing participation that Mab did.  In fact, Mab's ability to cure Nemfection might be directly related to the mechanism of the blackstaff.  Assuming of course that both the underlying theories are correct (that the Blackstaff is a Winter Artifact and that Black Magic Taint = Nemfection
The theory is that the supernatural element of Black Magic taint (the bit that the blackstaff protects Eb from, independent of the moral and psychological fallout) is in fact an expression of Nemfection.  There are various threads that pull together to make this theory hold some water, but the core idea is that since Magic is the very fundamental force of Creation and since Mortals are directly empowered like no other to affect the fabric of reality (via Soul and Free Will), so when then choose to twist that Power of Life and Creation is one of several specific Extreme ways, it creates a sort of 'crack' in reality that allows a bit of Nemesis Inside.  Do it often enough and the accumulated Taint/Nemfection would build up and eventually start influencing you more directly.  Since Fae have no Soul, they both do not have the same effect on reality with their magic (just like how they cannot actually Summon Outsiders) but similarly they dont have the same Cosmically protected Choice; so their Nemfections require outside vectors, but also can happen much more swiftly.

That doesn't work... It makes Nemesis an absolute moron. I mean, it's only gotten two barely infected agents into the Council via nemfection. It gets most of its human infectees killed, makes them all addicts, and generally breaks their sanity. And its stupidly overt. So personally, no. Bad stupid theory tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.

[Tami Seven]

In a way that disappoints me, because it leaves all the logical holes and contradictions in place.  If Lara had been making it up, or distorting it for Thomas, some of those problems would be gone.

I don't see how. JB has thought this out and his explanation not only makes sense but is verified in the series. Lara doesn't need to create a whole mysterious ruse to control Thomas, we have seen her do it with much simpler methods, more traditional White Court methods.

[Quantus]

That doesn't work... It makes Nemesis an absolute moron. I mean, it's only gotten two barely infected agents into the Council via nemfection. It gets most of its human infectees killed, makes them all addicts, and generally breaks their sanity. And its stupidly overt. So personally, no. Bad stupid theory tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.

Hah.

[RobReece]

tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.

do you have any idea how many theories on this board could be described this way?
including some of mine...

[groinkick]

That doesn't work... It makes Nemesis an absolute moron. I mean, it's only gotten two barely infected agents into the Council via nemfection. It gets most of its human infectees killed, makes them all addicts, and generally breaks their sanity. And its stupidly overt. So personally, no. Bad stupid theory tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.

Two Winter Lady's killed. Mab "doing what she thought best" for Leah according to Jim which sounds a little ominous to me...  What may appear moronic might be the exact opposite if you knew the long game.  If Jim is writing it right it's much more like chess than checkers.  Those who were openly infected may have been so purposely while covert agents don't appear infected at all.

[Tami Seven]

Two Winter Lady's killed. Mab "doing what she thought best" for Leah according to Jim which sounds a little ominous to me...  What may appear moronic might be the exact opposite if you knew the long game.  If Jim is writing it right it's much more like chess than checkers.  Those who were openly infected may have been so purposely while covert agents don't appear infected at all.

Taking what happened to Cat Sith into account, it does seem like Nemesis can take as much or possibly as little control as it needs to over someone. This is kind of like Peabody and his mind control ink, leaving the White Council wondering just how much of their actions were their own or were subtly being influenced by Peabody.

[Griffyn612]

That doesn't work... It makes Nemesis an absolute moron. I mean, it's only gotten two barely infected agents into the Council via nemfection. It gets most of its human infectees killed, makes them all addicts, and generally breaks their sanity. And its stupidly overt. So personally, no. Bad stupid theory tying unrelated phenomenon together in a silly conspiracy that makes no practical sense.

[Rasins]

Q,

I've been thinking about this and I'm having a hard time buying the effects of black magic being a form of Nemfection.

I get it that using black magic can drive someone ... off center (like the Korean kid in PG), but that could be something similar to going crazy from a syphilis infection.

We know Nemesis is an outsider with an intelligence and a purpose.  We know that Nemesis can vary the amount of control it exerts over one it has infected.  We don't know if it takes a volunteer to be an Aurora or Maeve type of infection, or if it's really more like a Cat-Sith infection, and is only masked.

We saw the Leansidhe fighting it, but we don't know how much influence it had before she realized her error and asked for help.

I'm thinking Nemesis is an infection and has a scale of control from Aurora (barely whispering in her hear), through Maeve (probably talking like Lash did), to total full on possession like Cat-sith.

I just don't see it as a general virus like Syphilis.