Fling him through a wall

[Ace of Space]

Hello,

I'm back, with a couple more questions about mechanics. My wife and I finished playing "Night Fears", with me as GM, her as a vixen changeling with aikido skills. Keeping this short, she is trying to inspect the walls of the haunted house's dining room, correctly believing that there is something hidden within the walls. Andy the Jock enters the room and tries to tackle her due to a.... misunderstanding. My wife says, "Great! I'll fling him through the wall!" And I'm thinking, "Cool! But is that an attack, a defense, or a maneuver, or....?"

So I tell her to make a defense roll, and she succeeds with style (I'm trying to use the four action, four outcomes from Fate Core here). I give her an unnamed boost, and tell her to make a maneuver roll (her fists vs. Andy's athletics), with a +2 bonus from the boost, to fling poor Andy through the wall. She succeeds, and I let her add the aspects "Andy-shaped hole" to the wall and "On the living room floor" to Andy, but I rule that somehow being smashed through a wall deals no stress damage to Andy because it wasn't technically an attack. She felt like she shouldn't have to make two rolls, I felt like she was creating two aspects with a single maneuver, but overall we were both happy with the result.

I was just wondering if there's a better way mechanically to handle stuff like this. Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Sanctaphrax]

I think you handled it sensibly.

She has to roll twice because first she's rolling to not get tackled and then she's rolling to do the throw. Narratively one action, but mechanically a defense and a counterattack. Or counter-maneuver, whatever. (Throwing someone around could also be an attack, of course.)

She should create two Aspects, because she gets one for maneuvering and one for defending with style.

[g33k]

I note that this hits my "problem with Fate" filter pretty hard.

When the setting "stops making sense" because of a game-mechanical effect, I hard-stop.

And being flung through a wall should bloody-well HURT.  Even a decrepit old wall.

YMMV.

[Sanctaphrax]

The hurting is represented through the Aspect. Which is actually way more meaningful, in terms of its effect on the game-world, than a few points of stress would be.

[Quantus]

I note that this hits my "problem with Fate" filter pretty hard.

When the setting "stops making sense" because of a game-mechanical effect, I hard-stop.

And being flung through a wall should bloody-well HURT.  Even a decrepit old wall.

YMMV.

Oh it hurts alright, it's just that fate doesnt represent all pain as Stress.  And given the "Andy-shaped hole" Im picturing the hit being fairly flat and dispersed impact which was mostly absorbed by the breaking wall. 
Had there been more supernatural might (or maybe speed) involved in the attack, or if the wall had been newer or made of brick and not broken, I might have imposed more actual stress.  But the PC threw with the intent of breaking the wall more than the person, so to me she was trading direct damage for other effects (in this case she was mostly looking to make a hole in the wall) and both the mechanics and the physics support that. 

[g33k]

The hurting is represented through the Aspect. Which is actually way more meaningful, in terms of its effect on the game-world, than a few points of stress would be.

If the Aspect had more teeth to it, I'd agree that it was "way more meaningful" than some Stress, or even a Consequence.  Something like "Dazed" to indicate being largely-unaware-of-surroundings and largely-incapable-of-acting-effectively.

They were just THROWN through a WALL, fer cryin out loud!

As Quantas points out, extreme levels of strength/speed/etc could have yielded a very-different result; but even a normal human going through a normal wall is taking a huge amount of impact (and actually, the "andy-shaped hole" is a sign of a much WORSE impact -- each and every piece of Andy hit hard enough to leave an outline; if it were real physics, that'd be an "Andy-shaped-hole in THIS wall, and Andy is embedded into the FAR wall").

I reiterate that Fate handles this in a sufficiently-unrealistic manner that the mechanics occur for me as a problem, breaking suspension-of-disbelief .

YMMV.

[Quantus]

If the Aspect had more teeth to it, I'd agree that it was "way more meaningful" than some Stress, or even a Consequence.  Something like "Dazed" to indicate being largely-unaware-of-surroundings and largely-incapable-of-acting-effectively.

They were just THROWN through a WALL, fer cryin out loud!

As Quantas points out, extreme levels of strength/speed/etc could have yielded a very-different result; but even a normal human going through a normal wall is taking a huge amount of impact (and actually, the "andy-shaped hole" is a sign of a much WORSE impact -- each and every piece of Andy hit hard enough to leave an outline; if it were real physics, that'd be an "Andy-shaped-hole in THIS wall, and Andy is embedded into the FAR wall").

I reiterate that Fate handles this in a sufficiently-unrealistic manner that the mechanics occur for me as a problem, breaking suspension-of-disbelief .

YMMV.

Oh, fwiw I wasnt picturing normal wall, I was picturing the crumbling 20's era slat walls you always see in abandoned houses and crack dens.  The Andy Shaped Hole was something I took to mean the wall itself was really weak so it broke in an outline easily.  Rather than breaking him

[Sanctaphrax]

The issue, insofar as there is one, isn't really anything to with Fate. It's not like the Fate rules dictate that you have to let people chuck each other through walls without killing them or shattering their bones. They just explain how to handle it, if you do so decide.

Rules-wise, Ace of Space was totally within his rights to say "no, that's not plausible" to his wife. Probably would've broken the mood and made for a worse game, but that would also be the case in Shadowrun or Exalted or GURPS or whatever.

[g33k]

The issue, insofar as there is one, isn't really anything to with Fate. It's not like the Fate rules dictate that you have to let people chuck each other through walls without killing them or shattering their bones. They just explain how to handle it, if you do so decide.

Rules-wise, Ace of Space was totally within his rights to say "no, that's not plausible" to his wife. Probably would've broken the mood and made for a worse game, but that would also be the case in Shadowrun or Exalted or GURPS or whatever.

Well, table conventions and the social contract will trump the rules every time; so if the expectation at the table and/or the "feel" of the setting calls this kind of thing "right," then obviously it is!

Some games include simulationist details like hardness-of-wall in "hit points" or give it "armor points" or what-have-you... Fate notsomuch (by default).

I keep loving Fate's narrative elements, but then tripping over the way it defaults to HollywoodReality when my GeekyTechy reflexes say "That's Not Right"...   aaaaand I just realized I'm pulling a Reverse Dresden here (from the beginning of "Day Off")

DAMN.

I guess I gotta buy the beer.

[Taran]

Games like D&D that have hardness and hit points do 'throwing someone through a wall" way worse than Fate.  You, literally, can't throw someone through a wall.  And if you did, using a grapple or a push, it still doesn't cause damage.

In fact, in those types of games, because there are no aspects, if you blast someone with a fireball, you can't also knock them across the room with the same attack.

In Fate, when you score a consequence, you can immediately invoke it for effect to throw someone across a room, assuming it's a fair compel.

As a GM, I might rule that "Andy shaped hole" is a take out or concession or that aspect might be compelled for stress.  I like that kind of flexibility of FATE.

[Stormraven]

You can in Hero - to both. You can both throw someone through a wall (assuming your strength or the damage of your throw is high enough) and knock someone yards back with an attack.

That said, I'll take Fate any day for Dresden and games like it. The narrative control you have with Fate makes most magic use far more workable than in many other systems.

[Mr. Death]

Also depends on the kind of wall. If we're talking hard wood or something, yeah, there's gonna be injuries and consequences.

But I literally threw my brother through some sheetrock when we were both kids and he sustained no injuries at all.

[Taran]

Also depends on the kind of wall. If we're talking hard wood or something, yeah, there's gonna be injuries and consequences.

But I literally threw my brother through some sheetrock when we were both kids and he sustained no injuries at all.

You might have injured his pride.  Maybe he took a social consequence? 

[Ace of Space]

Also depends on the kind of wall. If we're talking hard wood or something, yeah, there's gonna be injuries and consequences.

But I literally threw my brother through some sheetrock when we were both kids and he sustained no injuries at all.

Excellent points. No way I would let her throw a guy through a hard wall with her mediocre might, though. We both interpreted the wall to be a crumbling, ancient structure. Like your idea of compelling the aspect to put some hurt on him though.

I definitely should have considered the social stress on Andy. Or mental stress on the scared kids in the living room!

Great discussion, looking forward to our next adventure!