Philosophic Discussions for Characters

[Griffyn612]

Harry embraces following his heart as a guide to doing what's right, and reacting to what is immediately in front of him, as modes of making moral choices.  He may well think he is doing the necessary thing, but his rejection of thinking through longer-term consequences and endeavouring to do things that will have better results overall when that cuts against what feels obviously right to him at the moment, and tendency to pretty much always think anyone who does think that way must be doing it for personal benefit, is getting good and evil tangled up in a classic Order/Chaos distinction, and as I understand it taking that position counts as a free-willed action in DV terms.

Hey, does DV free will come with the moral meta-obligation to examine and assess how one makes moral decisions and change one's nature accordingly, or should I just go back to hiding in my room for another year ?

I'd imagine there are plenty of people that don't consider the consequences of their actions, nor do they consider considering them. But they'd presumably still have free will.

To be honest, the greater you consider responsibility, the less free will you have.

[wardenferry419]

How does it impact an individual's free will if they consider the responsibility associated with their actions after the actions have occurred instead of prior to the act?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I'd imagine there are plenty of people that don't consider the consequences of their actions, nor do they consider considering them. But they'd presumably still have free will.

I'd query that "presumably", because it doesn't feel logical to me to count a non-considered action that comes direct from someone's character, personality, the sort of thing than in the DV is entities following their nature, as being an act of free will.

(If you mean in RL, I do not believe human beings have anything like the degree of free will they axiomatically have in the DV.)

[wardenferry419]

I would say that the free will exists even if the choice being made is the necessary or demanded option.

[Griffyn612]

How does it impact an individual's free will if they consider the responsibility associated with their actions after the actions have occurred instead of prior to the act?

I'm talking about pre-action contemplation.  Just being a member of society and playing by its rules requires one to give up a measure of free will.  The more knowledgeable you are of the consequences, the more you are restrained.

I'd query that "presumably", because it doesn't feel logical to me to count a non-considered action that comes direct from someone's character, personality, the sort of thing than in the DV is entities following their nature, as being an act of free will.

That would seem to be the epitome of free will.  Doing what you want, when you want, regardless of the consequences, is free will.  Doing what you have to, either to conform to standards, or avoid consequences, is a restraint of personal desire, and therefore free will.

I would say that the free will exists even if the choice being made is the necessary or demanded option.

Tell that to the Fallen of the Dresdenverse.  They were required to do what was necessary and demanded of them.  But they only got one chance to exert free will.

Same for Mab.  She can get away with doing what she wants within the constraints of her office.  She has some small portion of free will, but even personally chosen acts are chosen from a narrow selection of possible acts she can choose from.

[wardenferry419]

I can agree that there exists many types of constraints to free will. An individual's nature comes with a set of constraints. Social conformity comes with constraints. Level of awareness of causality comes with a proportional set of constraints. But, acceptance or denial of these constraints is a choice that occurs repeatedly if not daily. Now, beings like the Fae and the Fallen have greater constraint due to their natures and their level of awareness, possibly less so as far as awareness is concerned. But, they are not constrained by social conformity. Wizards, on the other hand, have less constraint by nature, more constraint by social conformity, and varied but lesser constraint based on awareness due to the limitation of our life-spans. Free will without chosen constraint has been seen often in the series. And, it is usually a disaster. Wizards become warlocks. Fae are nem-infected and go "full Maeve." But, that is on the big scale. On a lower scale, feds become more like the beasts they assume the form of and act on impulses.

[jonas]

Personally I think you're confusing "honor" with "keeping one's word", but it's a common parallel, so I get where you're coming from.  But I don't think they're the same in his case.

He never promised to pull Harry out of the water at the end of DM, choose to. Societally his mindset matches Bushido's basis. He holds himself to his own standard, that, that's a sense of honor. Perhaps your confusing Honor with goodness?(lotsa samurai were complete assholes fyi, knights too. They had the entitlement to it from their position of 'honor') Not letting kids get hurt in his area of control? That's a matter of honor that has nothing to do with any proclamation except perhaps one he made to his employee's regarding the matter. It wasn't his word that drove him though, it was his honor that drove him to give it.
But if you have a specific generalization of honor your thinking of? Cause I could probably show the parallels, my sense of it has directly to do with the warriors who originally formulated the idea though.

[Griffyn612]

He never promised to pull Harry out of the water at the end of DM, choose to. Societally his mindset matches Bushido's basis. He holds himself to his own standard, that, that's a sense of honor. Perhaps your confusing Honor with goodness?(lotsa samurai were complete assholes fyi, knights too. They had the entitlement to it from their position of 'honor') Not letting kids get hurt in his area of control? That's a matter of honor that has nothing to do with any proclamation except perhaps one he made to his employee's regarding the matter. It wasn't his word that drove him though, it was his honor that drove him to give it.
But if you have a specific generalization of honor your thinking of? Cause I could probably show the parallels, my sense of it has directly to do with the warriors who originally formulated the idea though.

I go on the actual definition of the word, rather than commonly assumed generalizations.
 
Definition of honor
1 : good name or public esteem : reputation Nope
2 : privilege i.e. had the honor of joining the captain for dinner.    Nope
3 : a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high office if Your Honor please.  Nope
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : credit an honor to the profession.    Nope
5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon. Nope 
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction.  Nope
7 : chastity, purity.  Nope
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity.    Nope

Dictionary.com
honor
[on-er]
noun
1) honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. Nope
2) a source of credit or distinction. Nope
3) high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: Nope
4) such respect manifested, i.e. a memorial in honor of the dead. Nope
5) high public esteem; fame; glory. Nope
6) the privilege of being associated with or receiving a favor from a respected person, group, organization, etc. Nope

Which synonyms of honor are applicable to him?
probity, uprightness, deference, homage; reverence, veneration, distinction, esteem, venerate. None of them

Marcone is not honorable; he's not worthy of honor. 

He believes in equivalency.  He keeps his word.  He does not betray his partners or allies.  He has a few positive qualities that are wrapped around a ruthless drive to control everything and everyone.  He's a warlord.  Perhaps the best of warlords, but a warlord non the less.  He has a personal code of honor.  But that only means he's not a savage.

[jonas]

I go on the actual definition of the word, rather than commonly assumed generalizations.
 
Definition of honor
1 : good name or public esteem : reputation Nope
2 : privilege i.e. had the honor of joining the captain for dinner.    Nope
3 : a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high office if Your Honor please.  Nope
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : credit an honor to the profession.    Nope
5 : the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon. Nope 
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction.  Nope
7 : chastity, purity.  Nope
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity.    Nope

1 He has an excellent reputation amongst both supernatural and his government contacts. Your thinking of what we know of him directly and through law enforcement which isn't reputation at large. His reputation precedes him certainly
2Holds a public Gala to secretly auction off a priceless stolen relic, inviting high society and government...
3 Though this one holds less meaning to me personally, he was introduced by Dresden without Dresden explicitly meeting him as Baron John Marcone.
4.... actually, he brings his bona fides into the role of Criminal Kingpin in a way no other has(and is accredited for it including by all those who casually leave him alone remembering how Crime was before)
5Do you mean of an AMORAL hierarchy? Cause... yea, as his Morals have trickled down into the underworld he is the central figure whose name enforces these ideals, he's the center point of it.
6 what? Being free holding king of Chicago isn't distinctive? you'd have to explain the meaning better to the casual observer before this can be an immediate nope.
7 lol
8Integrity is also redefined as keeping ones word, and he has his own ethics, like I said.

Dictionary.com
honor
[on-er]
noun
1) honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions. Nope
2) a source of credit or distinction. Nope
3) high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: Nope
4) such respect manifested, i.e. a memorial in honor of the dead. Nope
5) high public esteem; fame; glory. Nope
6) the privilege of being associated with or receiving a favor from a respected person, group, organization, etc. Nope

1he absolutely believes in his own actions. He has that kernel of certainty he gained from his dark secret. Driving belief..
2 By what definition again? He's been distinguished since his introduction, see Baron, in a time and place such things don't actually exist, admitted by a guy who despises him.
3 Name one person who matters who lacks respect for Marcone? Government? NN? Even Harry gives him his due when he must.
4Still kicking
5Again. your perspective, as based through Harry's perspective, isn't necessarily public(or even that important to those in the know in the vanilla world)
6Odin, Einjirener(whatever)
Seems because your perspective says he's a despicable person he lacks Honor... and your perspective is entirely based on Harry's biased views that can't even see Hendricks correctly.(and yes the sieve I just put it through proves it's by and large persectivity as I call it, because I can prove another view exists weither unbiased itself or not.[which if anyone's EVER paid attention they'd realize by now I care less about being right than I do being accurate])

Which synonyms of honor are applicable to him?
probity, uprightness, deference, homage; reverence, veneration, distinction, esteem, venerate. None of them

Marcone is not honorable; he's not worthy of honor.

There that's your problem, you believe Honor to be something to be given or bestowed by another. Except a very narrow definition it isn't. However you can't say NOBODY gives those things to him deserving or not. Lots of deference, distinction and what's better described as 'awe'.

He believes in equivalency.  He keeps his word.  He does not betray his partners or allies.  He has a few positive qualities that are wrapped around a ruthless drive to control everything and everyone.  He's a warlord.  Perhaps the best of warlords, but a warlord non the less.  He has a personal code of honor.  But that only means he's not a savage.

Hold on i'll go find my copy of Bushido when I can. There's a really big reason Marcone is described by Nic as a good king(and it's mostly because modern people have idea chaff, excesses of thought applied to one thoughtform until it's true meaning is lost, like the word libera... ahh, nvm) and it's not because he's up for sainthood soon or because Nic is just as 'evil'.

[jonas]

The sense of Honor, implying a vivid consciousness of personal[1] dignity and worth....
Though the word ordinarily given nowdays as the translation of honor was not used freely, yet the idea was conveyed by terms such as Na(name), men-moku(countenance), Guai-bun(outside hearing) reminds us respectively of the biblical use of "Name", of the evolution of the term personality from the Greek mask, and of "fame". A good name-ones reputation, the immortal part of our self,[2] what remains bestial-assumed as a matter of course, any infringement upon it's integrity was felt as shame[3]....
The fear of disgrace was so great that if our literature lacks such eloquence as Shakespeare puts in the mouth of Norfolk, it nevertheless hung like Damocles[4] sword over the head of every samurai.

1 Honor is a personal state, betimes dictated by societal standards tis true. Note though it says conscious not conscience. Marcone has proven able to make Willfull conscious decisions and otherwise spite in the eye of destiny. Perhaps a person of Honor and a person whose in a state of constant 'hereness' and ergo change/consciousness(as opposed to those emboldened to their emotions and other whimsy) are to be considered the same? Certainly conscious awareness would give constant ability to maintain proper decorum in the face of adversity of any sort... and... Murphy is a great example of the opposite when

(click to show/hide)

she acted without thinking it through vs Nic and the Genoska. If she'd been properly aware and not given in to impulse she would have been comporting herself Honorably enough for a Knight.

Marcone embodies that state, as does a tiger imo. (Which is my way of not having to go through the motions of pointing out the symbolism applied to tigers being in alignment for self worth and dignity)
2 So in this state it almost is more the perceptions based upon outside views, in apparent alignment with how an actual mantle would work... Mmm his 'honor' is also how he would manifest as an immortal? Ok... see Erlking, and Arthur the two best examples of where Marcone has ended up in comparison to the Odin, Merlin side of Harry's similarities. So his 'honor' would have him perhaps a horrible goblin of singular distinction at head of the goblins, whose known for confusingly either hurting kids or protecting them...
3 His shame is Amanda Beckitt, for his penance he holds back the... shall we say more livelier parts of himself. In order for this to impugn him he must have a sense of Honor to begin with though.
4Just wanted to add that as it seemed funny it mentions Damocles sword in relation to Honor.
*also think I just found where i'd originally started reading about Hope and Duty as one and the same, cool beans.

[wardenferry419]

What Marcone says he is going to do; he does. What he does; he does with a committed purpose. Plus, he has a tendency to be protective of children.  He is a warlord; but, that still makes him better than many of the people I have to deal with.

[jonas]

What Marcone says he is going to do; he does. What he does; he does with a committed purpose. Plus, he has a tendency to be protective of children.  He is a warlord; but, that still makes him better than many of the people I have to deal with.

Funnily enough, as Samurai's greatest point in history was the warring states period, the very next passage in the subsection on Honor gives attribute to the views of 3 of the most notorious(but none were considered dishonorable however) in a literary epigram,
Nobunaga said,"I will kill her, if the nightingale does not sing in time."
Hideyoshi,"I will force her to sing."
Iyeyasu,"I will wait till she opens her lips."

Overall Warlord's are one of those things were Honor was taken seriously by all but the most thuggish. Even Genghis Kahn, I literal 'barbarian' was also cultured and scholarly. The purpose of Honor is to create a fine line or distinction in the approach, mindset and/or actions of a culture that's generally exclusive to that culture, although not as much as you may expect. Marcone's culture is Chicago and more specifically it's criminal element, that's the viewpoint that would then be applied, to which he is held in high regard indeed compared to the other elements so far represented in it.
and that sense of balance actually resonates quite well here, if not originates,

In Judiasm, which believed in a jealous God, or in Greek mythology, which provided a Nemesis, vengeance may be left to superhuman agencies; but common sense furnished Bushido with the institution of redress as a kind of ethical court of equity, where people could take cases not to be judged in accordance with ordinary law.

You know, stuff like Wereguild and Bloodmoney, personal revenge, ect. Stuff Marcone does.