When Winter took over at the Outer Gates [Spoilers all, including the DFARPG]

[rad]

A noble of Britain.  If we go with Mab's title The Queen of Air and Darkness it means that she is originally Morgause from Arthurian myth.  Her name changed through the years to Morgause but if you look back at various older stories you might just be able to find the original. 

[Con]

I thought Queen of Air and Darkness was a Morrigan thing?

[Ennys]

Which brings me back to my question: if Mab is Mother Winter's actual daughter (as said my Mama Summer in SK), who's the poor dumb sop that got it on with Baba Yaga?

We were told in a WoJ that the current Mab is the second Mab. If Jim is following the tradition of having 3 Baba Yagas, then it would follow that originally they were all sisters without the direct Mother -> Daughter relationship.

That said, though I haven't read it myself, I have seen people mention how the mantles shape a person to be a certain way (ie, Winter Lady not being allowed to have a child). If that is the case, then as Mother Winter, she probably had to have a child at some point; however, that doesn't necessarily mean she did it as Mother Winter or even as Baba Yaga - just that at some point it happened.

[Warden John Marcone]

We were told in a WoJ that the current Mab is the second Mab.

He'll have to expand on that then as to whether one of the previous Queens was named Mab, because he went on to say that Mab started as the Lady and the previous Queens died which is when the current Mab ascended, and the mantle made her the frigid b**** we all know and fear.

[Vorrobblev]

I have a thought. The quote isn't "since Hastings" it's "since BEFORE Hastings". What if (as usual) she is feeling the literal truth, giving a point of reference Harry would understand, and hiding the actual truth all at the same time. She does mean 1066, but not October, what if the actual event was marked by Halley's comet? Maybe they had a right of Ascension then and the invasion and Norman Conquest was a side effect of the new balance.

 If we assume an average of one year passing in each book and 7 books left till the BOAT, that gives us a new moon on the night of Oct 31/Nov 1 2024. That would be a perfect start the Empty Night, right.

[Con]

I think Hastings was to specific a reference point for it not to be the date of significance

[Wizardofnelson]

Little side chatter about where the sidhe came from, considering putting it with a few other things to try to have a proposed 'history' of the guard and gates, in so much as we know vs what we can guess at with help. But not sure how to organize...
Druids.... They couldn't effect fate(read:freedom of will) but they could conjure the elements and all kinds of fun magical stuff. Anyway

At a time of the Roman conquests of Gaul and Britain the Druids were flourishing as the only unifying institution of the Celts... The Druids were largely suppressed, except in Ireland, which the Romans never conquered
 The Druidic practice of human sacrifice may also have encouraged the Romans to suppress the cult... The word Druid is probably related to the Celtic word for oak tree-daur. The oak was in fact sacred to the Druids, as was the mistletoe... Druidic tradition was in par preserved in irish epic for some centuries after its christianization of Ireland and faint echoes in Welsh folklore.

ok so, the Romans moved on them and suppressed the 'magic folk' but started their own studies into magic at the same time, thereby potentially changing the main traditions of magic used by most practitioners thereafter. But ireland, where Jim has drawn on more directly for Mehb and what not, also the sidhe, literally, people of the mounds originate thereafter in Irish legend. I might reedit some of this later, I don't know right now, cutting it very short here though.

[vultur]

I thought Queen of Air and Darkness was a Morrigan thing?

A noble of Britain.  If we go with Mab's title The Queen of Air and Darkness it means that she is originally Morgause from Arthurian myth.  Her name changed through the years to Morgause but if you look back at various older stories you might just be able to find the original. 

I believe 'queen of air and darkness' is a rather modern term with no mythological source.  T. H. White's "Queen of Air and Darkness" is Morgause, yes. (He got the phrase from an A. E. Housman poem but it's not clear who it refers to there.)

I don't think there is any connection between Morgause and the Morrigan, or Morgan le Fay, despite all starting with "Mor". The names aren't actually related.

[Mith]

There is potentially some connection due to similar language structure behind the names, but they are not connected in terms of a common mythological source.

[Quantus]

There is potentially some connection due to similar language structure behind the names, but they are not connected in terms of a common mythological source.

You may be right in a historic sense, though that whole region is enough of a melting pot that it's hard to say anything for certain about sources, for example there are theories about common mythological roots for Zeus and Odin.  That being said, there is a trend toward amalgamation of mythological characters especially in the higher power levels, so I would not at all be surprised to find the DV versions have a more compact circle of character, once we eventually get the reveal one what went down surrounding Arthur. 

[Foxed]

Thought it was Zeus and Thor, and Hermes and Odin.

I specifically remember my Caesar, and he claimed that the Celts worshipped the same gods, but Mercury was the leader (psychopomp, god of magic, nice hat).

[Mith]

You may be right in a historic sense, though that whole region is enough of a melting pot that it's hard to say anything for certain about sources, for example there are theories about common mythological roots for Zeus and Odin.  That being said, there is a trend toward amalgamation of mythological characters especially in the higher power levels, so I would not at all be surprised to find the DV versions have a more compact circle of character, once we eventually get the reveal one what went down surrounding Arthur.

I was talking in the historic sense, which has limited application for the DV.  It's better to say that I have never found any evidence to such a connection from what I have read, since I had the same question, but Jim may choose differently.

[Avernite]

I'm interested in the connection possibly adding in the Morgen of Breton fame (Murigen in Welsh, apparently), who lure people to drowning deaths like the sirens of Greek myth.

Mab has a clear connection to people falling into water (i.e. Harry's ghost trip), and for seducing humans into her domain, though not directly the sirenic attraction of the Morgen.

It seems like the kind of accidental similarity that in the Dresden Files isn't actually accidental, especially as the Morrigan is also sometimes a triple goddess (though I wonder how the Dutch/German/... morgen 'tomorrow/morning' could possibly fit in too).

[Quantus]

Interesting.  I dont really see the siren connection though, she doesnt have much other water-theme, and she recovered him from a Cold & Dark Place (ie her purview) but didnt lure or drown him as a siren or river hag would have.  Plus, per ol' Billy Shakes, she got her start as the Fae's Midwife (which fits with my personally theory that Mab and Titania were the daughters of a Summer Queen, possibly even the current Mother Summer. 

To me the most direct Siren analog is Jenny Greenteeth

[Con]

Well we know Nymphs, Satyrs, and Centaurs are a part of the Sidhe so it's not a stretch to imagine Sirens are as well. It's possible Jenny Greenteeth was a siren who was bumped in power through her actions and association with Maeve.

Kind of like Leansidhe with Mab. I think at first she was just a Muse who used her powers to drive men mad and drink their blood. Which impressed Mab so she became her right hand woman.